User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick/archive 1

Welcome here. I just figured out a better monobook layout for the wiki. Castaway2000 (talk) 05:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Is that why it's suddenly green? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:20, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah. It's better this way, in my opinion. I was tryign to change the bright yellow quickly Castaway2000 (talk) 05:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Welcome
Welcome to the wiki Doc Results May Vary (talk) 00:50, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ya Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:50, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I wonder if Doomhiker is going to join. I told him about triforce wiki but he hasnt responded. Maybe he's upset zelda archive was closed off to editing? Results May Vary (talk) 00:54, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Re: Forking

 * What do you mean by that? I moved the content off zelda.shoutwiki.com entirely. The whole site is off, and all the content not from hylian pi on zelda archive is preserved here. He gave me the pages and images to preserve here Results May Vary (talk) 01:43, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, hylian pi created those, so i didnt move them off, since he wants to keep zelda archive up as a personal project Results May Vary (talk) 01:49, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Re: Zoras
I'll go move it back then Results May Vary (talk) 02:50, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Since when was naming Canon?
https://zelda.gamepedia.com/2nd_Potion See the notes section: "This item is also referred to as the Water of Life in the manual.[2] However, because the term in the game itself take precedence over it, this term is not considered Canon." ... Results May Vary (talk) 22:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Special:WhosOnline
Hi, I added a Special:WhosOnline on recent changes, just like the one Mario Wiki has (porplemontage helped get it working) Results May Vary (talk) 17:18, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

2nd Potion / Life Potion
Should they be the same or separate articles? I cant seem to decide Results May Vary (talk) 20:13, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, so then do we merge them under a single entry on The Legend of Zelda article? I think they're called Water of Life in the later games Results May Vary (talk) 20:17, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The Zelda Collection guide lists it as Water of Life as well as the manual. I'd personally just merge them under Water of Life... Here's some links to some Zelda pdf guides--i've saved some in case the original link goes down: https://archive.org/search.php?query=zelda%20guide Results May Vary (talk) 20:36, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

OoT GCN?
Hi, if we were to make a title for Ocarina of Time Master Quest (as a disc), what should we name it? It's already really confusing trying to distinguish between Master Quest as a mode and the disc itself... Results May Vary (talk) 02:08, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Opinion on Zelda Archive
Hi Doc, what's your opinion on Zelda Archive? Personally i didnt like the gray layout or the MS paint feel to the site, and that hylian pi closed it to editors. That's why i went through all this effort to get this wiki up for everyone Results May Vary (talk) 01:19, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Also tbh, i'm glad that Zelda Wiki went to gamepedia, so it gives us a better opportunity to improve on what they got wrong, as in justification for starting a new wiki. Also, why does Zelda wiki have a blue background? Makes no sense Results May Vary (talk) 01:25, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Timeline..
Hi, so how would we go about the whole timeline controversy in the Zelda series? I'd personally not add all these "canon/non-canon" titles all over the wiki, especially since each game page can list the timeline that it falls under. Results May Vary (talk) 01:34, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

OoT Characters
I'm busy adding all the characters into the Ocarina of Time article. It's pretty confusing to try and find a good, convenient list of every minor character and how to best sort, organize the information (whether it's by shopkeeper, six sages, or non playable characters with few lines of dialogue). How would you do it personally? Results May Vary (talk) 16:19, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Gender removed
I removed the gender part as per your suggestion. As you've noticed on the wiki, I take in user suggestions on what to implement and what to remove; doesnt mean they're my boss :P. Results May Vary (talk) 23:54, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw. The "view recent changes" thing is nice for seeing when changes have been made without having to refresh constantly or expand the list hugely through auto-updating when a lot of similar changes are made in sequence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:02, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Mario Wikia/FANDOM
have you ever been there? It's a pretty laughable wiki Results May Vary (talk) 05:06, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
 * First time I went there I was probably 10 or so and I was wondering "wait what even is this?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:09, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Re:Degu/Dig
That would make sense, considering Digdogger splits into smaller "Dogger" Unira (well, Mini Digdoggers), and most of the similarly-named enemies have a noticeable size difference. Although Degrock (Trinexx) doesn't appear to be that much bigger than Jeakrock (Helmasaur King), despite also apparently having the same Japanese prefix, and neither does the Digtitart / Big Manhandla from Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures (though the ordinary Testitart / Manhandla doesn't appear in those games to compare it properly). Maybe a translation note can be added along the lines of "the fictional degu is possibly a portmanteau of the Japanese deku and English big"? It's a lot better than having no explanation for it. LTL (talk) 14:14, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I guess that makes sense with Trinexx being the boss of Turtle Rock (on Death Mountain...with falling rocks), but then I'm not sure why else the Helmasaur King's Japanese name would be similar. Anyway, a glossary can work as long as editors are made sure to stick to observable facts about what the subjects have in common. LTL (talk) 04:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

How is the wiki?
How is Triforce Wiki working out for you? are you enjoying it? Results May Vary (talk) 22:48, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What's your favorite game franchise? Mine is Donkey Kong :P Results May Vary (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Link's gender needing citation
https://zelda.gamepedia.com/Link They added a citation to Link's gender to prove that he's a male. Also, the voice actors are listed on separate page, and a voice actor from an ALttP commercial one had me laughing: https://zelda.gamepedia.com/List_of_Voice_Actors#Other Results May Vary (talk) 00:28, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * https://zelda.fandom.com/wiki/Inside_the_Deku_Tree "It is also the second dungeon to take place inside of a tree, the first being Level 1 of The Legend of Zelda. However, that dungeon was presumably a dead tree, so this dungeon is also the first to take place in a living being." I'm almost in the mood to start a bjaodn-y section at the moment Results May Vary (talk) 03:27, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah thats why i said I felt like it. i won't actually do it--it alrady doesnt look good that i'm laughing at some of their writing openly (like here). Results May Vary (talk) 04:08, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Re:Futubasha
It has a Nintendo copyright, so it would seem so. LTL (talk) 04:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Triforce Page Issue
Alright, problem fixed. I removed all references to the timeline. Thank you for pointing that out. ArchagentEverlasting (talk) 8:15, 17 May 2019 (PST)

Re: Palettes
Alright, sorry about that "variant" mistake, Doc. Thank you for teaching me things as we go along--I thought the word to avoid was sub-species. Also, I ddint know the Swordsmen and Knights were the same character -- this is exactly the reason why I've been needing help on this project, as even i'm confused with names, especially of the earlier games (since there was less media to refer to official names).

On a sidenote, do you like the Bot page? I worked hard at it Results May Vary (talk) 00:01, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Crash Wiki?
Hi Doc, just letting you know I can possibly afford a domain to host an independent Crash Bandicoot wiki for you. Would you like for me to buy it? Results May Vary (talk) 22:02, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Save your money for what you need it for. Right now I'm looking for a Summer job, and don't know if I could juggle that as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:43, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I just went ahead and bought the crashbandicootwiki.com domain, and the spyrowiki.com domain. I'll see what i can do with both.. Also, nice that we have 64 articles now haha Results May Vary (talk) 01:04, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh my. Heh. I'm currently weathering a rather rough bit of a storm, it kept me offline a lot yesterday. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:52, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Here is the first page of Crash Bandicoot Wiki: https://crashbandicootwiki.com/wiki/Crash_Bandicoot_(franchise) . Earlier today i worked on the design & reused the background image from April Fools 2017 "The Wumpa Fruit". Racing/Party games to be added (as well as cancelled & mobile games) Results May Vary (talk) 02:04, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Re:Acheman
Yep, the name "Acheman" can be found in Nintendo Power Volume 4, page 22 (incidentally, the same page uses "Moblin" instead of "Molblin" and "Octarok" instead of "Octorok"). LTL (talk) 16:13, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Re:Dark Black Shadow Link's shadow
I guess it depends on if you consider the Shadow/Dark Links to be incarnations of the same character concept or not. I was initially thinking of two articles: one for Dark Link as a single character (as in Zelda II and Ocarina of Time) and another for Shadow Link as several copies (as in Oracle of Ages and Four Swords Adventures). The rationale there would be that the former is usually suggested to be the manifestation of Link's dark side and the latter are usually depicted as more general clones. Even then, it isn't a perfect solution because the Shadow Links in A Link Between Worlds are fought with a Zelda II palace remix in a clear homage to the original one, and it's not clear if the Links in A Link to the Past/Four Swords are Shadow Links or Dark Link using the Four Sword, which sort of blends both ideas together. That, and NES Remix 2 refers to the Zelda II one as Shadow Link (though it's Link's Shadow in the NES Game Atlas) and Hyrule Warriors refers to them as Dark Links, so the names would have some overlap. Overall, the simplest solution would be to treat the Shadow Link article as we do the Link article. LTL (talk) 15:35, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Big Blin is Oyablin (オヤブリン), but Stone Blin / Boss Blin is "Oyabun" (オヤブン). LTL (talk) 08:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Re:Lost Hills
It seems it was originally unnamed since it comes from the Maps and Strategies foldout that came with the NES version, which did not come with the original Disk System release. Supporting this, an old man mentions the Lost Woods ("Forest of Maze"), but the Lost Hills is only referred to as the "mountain" in the hint for it. Additionally, the guides don't appear to have a special name for it. However, there was an equivalent for the Family Computer re-release, and the overworld map location reads 「まよいの丘 」 (Mayoi no Oka), which is likely a reverse-translation. LTL (talk) 08:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Checking that in the Switch version would be as simple as changing the system language, but I found list of locations here. Looks like none of them are Tabantha Wilds (タバンタ秘境). LTL (talk) 00:30, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Dodongo Snake
Here's something that may be of interest: in the Japanese Link's Awakening guides, the name of this creature is Dodongo, but in concept artwork released in Hyrule Historia, it's. LTL (talk) 08:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Re:Eyegore Statue
There's some crossover, but I'm leaning slightly towards distinguishing them to offer a more unique interpretation. I'd say Eyegore Statue refers to the hopping ones from Four Swords and The Minish Cap, and Four Swords Adventures' Eyegore, while resembling them, nonetheless has a different design and don't seem to be stone statues. The decorative statues from A Link to the Past don't seem to be living statues (seikizō), so I wouldn't say they would count either. LTL (talk) 00:30, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Refresh my memory - what were the Eyegores/statues like in the Oracle games? LTL (talk) 19:00, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I see, though I'm not sure if they were really meant to be Eyegores. If you want to make a third (maybe part conjecture) article for miscellaneous Eyegore-like statues, would "Rocklops statue" from page 123 of the A Link to the Past Nintendo Power guide work? LTL (talk) 00:00, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The Link's Awakening statues are listed as "EYE GUARDS" on page 101 of the Nintendo Power guide, but just a "statue" in a hint in the DX version. It's also plainly described as a statue on page 80 and even has artwork that more closely resembles the original Eyegore (which is on Zeldapedia's page), although the text underneath describes the Hinox miniboss. I don't know if they were initially meant to be the same thing, but the Eyegores in A Link Between Worlds have a similar design to the Link's Awakening statue sprite and Eyegores are apparently known as Eye Guards in the A Link to the Past/Four Swords Player's Guide, so I think it's safe to group them together since the naming inconsistency is probably in part due to real Rocklops/Eyegores not appearing in Link's Awakening. In terms of Japanese guides, the Rocklops statue is referred to as 「アイゴールの像」 (Aigōru no zō, Eyegore statue) on page 101 of the second part of the Kamigami no Triforce Shogakukan guide, and it doesn't seem to have a special name in Yume o Miru Shima guides. I don't have any real preference how the subject is split, but it at least looks like differentiation exists between the statues and the real ones, with the statues themselves having variance and being less clear. LTL (talk) 16:45, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * That settles the Oracle name, though yes, it seems like it's more for specific behavior. There are the lines "The Eye of Deceit won't affect you, Link. I'm sure of it!?" and "I heard there's a terrible trap called the Eye of Deceit..." that only appear in the Oracle of Ages text dump, but I don't know the context they're in. The Oracles of Seasons/Ages Nintendo Power guide calls them either "statues" or "eye statues". Also, I remembered I have the Four Swords Adventures Nintendo Power guide, so I checked it. They're named "Eyegores" but described as "statues" on both pages 71 and 72. So it seems like at some point, it became rather nebulous. About the Zelda Wiki / Zeldapedia, I figured that would happen sooner or later since, from what I've been able to gather, the goal of Wikia's buyout of Gamepedia is to eventually merge them under FANDOM. While the post does claim that a full merge won't happen, the fact that it's being entertained looks like Zelda Wiki is (maybe forcibly) sticking with Gamepedia and abandoning the principles of NIWA, so their honorary position as part of it should be put under serious question once merging starts happening. If the only thing Mario Wiki has in common with Zelda Wiki anymore is that Dark Horse copied from them, I believe that should be the point to have to disassociate. As an aside, while I completely agree that a fresh start is the best way to ensure quality, I'm worried that the name "Triforce Wiki" just won't be able to compete with Zelda Wiki. Once we get some momentum going, I think Results May Vary‎ should rebrand the wiki as "The Legend of Zelda Wiki" or something along those lines. It does have the zeldawiki.info domain name, and a similar name didn't stop Wikia's Mario Wiki. As long as it gets the Zelda series name in there, it should attract the search results needed to help secure its future. LTL (talk) 00:01, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The names in the Oracle of Seasons/Ages guide are generic, but they're just "statues" the vast majority of the time, with "one-eyed statues" used twice and "eye statues" used once to refer to the "Eyes of Deceit" leading up to Twinrova. The specific names aren't perfect either, since apparently "Eye Guard" from Link's Awakening directly refers to the fireball-shooting one and the "Eye of Deceit" directly refers to the Room of Rites variant. I guess, if we're going by in-game naming, Eye of Deceit would be the closest one for a separate article. By the way, any idea why it would only be mentioned in the Oracle of Ages text dump and not the Oracle of Seasons one? Is it possibly an oversight caused by the fact that it's in the linked game? LTL (talk) 03:49, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Fire Bago-Bago
As far as I can tell, the only source for the name "Fire Bago-Bago" is The Legend of Zelda: Encyclopedia. What do you think should be done there? LTL (talk) 00:30, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 「ファイア・バゴバゴ」 I believe, but I'd be in favor of keeping it with Bago-Bago since we don't know if NintendoDREAM made it up. LTL (talk) 19:00, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Naming Hierarchy Policy
Hi, I'm thinking of making a naming hierarchy policy that's the same as how Mario Wiki does it. What should I include in it? Results May Vary (talk) 18:51, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Re:Source tier
Mario Wiki's current source priority does list in-game and manuals at the same level, but in actuality, in-game text is a tier above game manuals. It was an admin decision, and it also states that "the game's version takes precedence" in cases where there is an inconsistency with the manual. That's just assuming the policy still applies here since we have a chance to do stick to it or deviate from it, but that's up to rmv, though the aim of Triforce Wiki is to have a Zelda wiki in the same style as I understand it. In regards to the name itself, I'm referencing online text dumps and videos to read the script quickly and it's "Skeleton Knight" in both the SNES and GBA versions. The GBA version revised much of the text to be more accurate including some of the telepaths, so if there was an error, there was an opportunity to change it Stalfos Knight, which is left out of the GBA manual. For what it's worth, Zelda Wiki also makes note of Skeleton Knight but, because of Art & Artifacts, "any other term is not considered Canon." LTL (talk) 19:00, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, the second name comes from the equivalent Japanese line (interestingly, the same change from kenshi to knight was also made in The Adventure of Link in-game). I disagree, though - while Nintendo has never done a full-on Zelda retranslation, they still correct obvious inconsistencies in re-releases (e.g. Prince Darkness "Gannon", eastmost penninsula, the flute, seven wise men, etc.). Another thing about prioritizing a manual over the game is that the original manuals tend to not get re-released with their games, and when new manuals are made, it will sometimes include its own corrections (like removing Ganondorf Dragmire and Mandrag Ganon). Unless they look up a wiki (as we know Dark Horse does), most players are increasingly going to know the names from their own playthrough over a publication. Overall, my opinion is that I don't see a reason to change up the way article titles are done in this series. But as I say: that's up to rmv. LTL (talk) 00:00, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but the fact remains that the phrase is interpreted as a name in localization. How about this: do we know which name is used in the A Link to the Past/Four Swords Nintendo Power guide? I imagine that would be the most reliable recent source to use. LTL (talk) 16:45, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure the Nintendo Badge Arcade badges are untitled, but I could be wrong. The Oracle of Seasons/Ages Nintendo Power guide refers to the blue Stalfos enemies are referred to as "Stalfos Knights" (on page 111). The A Link to the Past Nintendo Power guide also refers to the enemy and boss Armos as "Armos Knight" and doesn't mention Stalfos by name. My take from this is that "Stalfos Knight" may have just been a brief relocalization attempt like Armos Knight before it was dropped rather than an intentional retranslation of Stalfon. LTL (talk) 03:49, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * So I'm playing through Cadence of Hyrule, and the names of enemies are listed when you get a Game Over by them (maybe there's somewhere else they show up later like a bestiary). There are normal Stalfos that lose their shield when hit once, but there are also heavily-armored Stalfos that seem to act as rarer enemies or minibosses. This type of Stalfos is called "Stalfos Knight", so case closed, right? Well, here's the kicker: the game also has a handy option to change your language setting like many other Switch games, and in the Japanese version, it's called 「スタルフォスナイト」 (Sutarufosu Naito) instead of the usual Japanese name for it. Given the new design and the fact that Stalfos also have new varieties for the game (Stalfos Gel, Stalfos Mage, Stalfos Rider...), I have a hunch the developers weren't aware of the previous knights. So, as I see it, this can go one of two ways: we can either make Stalfos Knight (from Cadence of Hyrule) a separate article from Skeleton Knight, or keep them together and rename Skeleton Knight to Stalfos Knight. LTL (talk) 21:23, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yep, it came out yesterday. I'm playing through and taking my own pictures so I can maybe upload them for later. Some people have already beaten it, but I'm going at my own pace (also because I'm not used to the combat system) . The Stalfos Knights in this game look more like souped-up Parutamu than the established ones (I don't believe they show up in the trailers so you may be thinking of the Stalfos with shields), and as for other names, I've noted so far that the ones for Pengator, Skullfish and White Wolfos are the same as the usual Japanese ones (Ice Wizzrobe is 「アイスウィズローブ」 (Aisu Wizurōbu) instead of 「アイスローブ」 (Aisurōbu), but that's apparently its name in newer games like Breath of the Wild), and the simultaneous built-in localizations tell me that the team worked worked closely with Nintendo to keep things in check. It's a bit of a hassle to have to switch the language before every Game Over, but I'll be mindful to do it when I come across something that might be interesting. I'll keep a lookout for Darknut / Iron Knuckle. LTL (talk) 22:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay yeah, that's the one that the game refers to as Stalfos Knight. LTL (talk) 23:20, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I should also note that the way to fight them is actually inverse of the version of the knights from A Link to the Past: you can (must?) place a bomb to make it crumble, then attack its fallen form, although the head is still floating around as an enemy and is known as a "Stalfos Knight Head" (スタルフォスナイトヘッド). Also, enemy Zoras have a new name here: "Evil Zora" (川ゾーラ, "River Zora"). LTL (talk) 23:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That works given the behavioral similarity (I can confirm that you actually don't need a bomb to weaken or destroy them, you just need to hit their side at least, though it helps because their head is frantic, shoots lasers and is actually invincible since it returns to its body when it loses HP), but the helmet seems to be a new design element. Several of the game's enemies also have color variants, and most of them are generically-named: Stalfos Knight and its head are simply "Black Stalfos Knight" (スタルフォスナイト（黒）) and "Black Stalfos Knight Head" (スタルフォスナイトヘッド（黒）). There are also red Zoras, which I was hoping were the game's equivalent of Kū but are called "Eviler Zora" (川ゾーラ（強）, "River Zora (strong)"). Interesting thing about the Zoras was more that the Japanese name is referencing Oracle of Ages despite sea Zoras being absent (the friendly Zoras more closely resemble the typical enemy design); the Zora's Sapphire symbol is shown on enemy camps where there's a Zora present so I'm pretty sure they're still intertwined anyway. About the Shrouded Stalfos, that must be the "Stalfos Mage" (マジックスタルフォス, "Magic Stalfos"), which is one of the new varieties. I did spot the Darknuts and Iron Knuckles, which I think marks the first time they coexist in the same game. In Japanese, Darknuts are known as Tartnuc (タートナック) and Iron Knuckles are known as Ironnuc (アイアンナック), so it's business as usual (even if it weren't, the name "Darknut" might not be totally unknown in Japan since it's used as internal names in Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Hyrule Warriors, oddly enough). Both have black variants: Darknut's is "Black Darknut" (タートナック（黒）) and Iron Knuckle's is "Iron Knuckle Chieftain" (アイアンナック（首領）). I'll mention some other things I've noted in my playthrough. Shadow Link (シャドウリンク) appears as a type of miniboss, with a pale skin tone design, and there is a new Shadow Zelda (シャドウゼルダ). The original Wall Master is back as "Wallmaster" (ウォールマスター), so the article may need to be readdressed as newer sources don't use a space. Eyeless Lava Bubbles, of all things, appear as an enemy under the name "Podoboo" (溶岩バブル, "Lava Bubble", presumably due to Zelda Bubbles appearing). Soldier enemies make an appearance and are now known as "Guards" (剣兵士, "Sword Soldier") of several colors, with the red ones known as "Sword Guards" (剣兵士（赤）, "Sword Soldier (red)") and "Bow Guards" (弓兵士) also appearing in green and blue varieties. The Ball and Chain Soldier appears as an enemy as well and is now known as a "Ball 'N Chain Guard" (鉄球兵士). Also, there's a "Guitar Guard" (ギター兵士) going with the game's theme, similar to the "Sonic Wizzrobe" (ソニックウィズローブ). And we know now that it's supposed to be "Kargaroc" (カーゴロック), not Kargarok. The Cane of Somaria is in, and in Japanese, it's back to its original name instead of the "Somasoa" one from the Four Swords edition. Overall, I didn't notice any glaring misrepresentations; the closest (besides the Japanese names of Electric Wizzrobe and Electric Keese, which are just newer names anyway) is that the Red Potion is now called the "Health Potion", but Japanese uses the usual name (赤いクスリ). In terms of the game's actual writing, the credits mentions English and Japanese writers at Brace Yourself Games and Spike Chunsoft, with Nintendo handling the localization to other languages and even having an "English Translation" credit (no mention of a Japanese translation so it seems co-written). LTL (talk) 14:20, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Supposedly, Nintendo of America at the time had more involvement with the CD-i games than they'd care to admit, but I'm not sure if that rumor is true. Also, a small addendum: I think the red "Sword Guards" (剣兵士（赤）) are meant to be the "base version" of the enemy in this game even though they seem rarer since they lack the shields of the "Green Guards" (剣兵士（緑）) and "Blue Guards" (剣兵士（青）), which would explain why the Japanese names are more clearly connected. No sign of the dagger, spear, or bomb versions from what I can tell. LTL (talk) 23:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Stalfos Knight seems more or less resolved thanks to Cadence of Hyrule, but I did recently get my hands on The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past/Four Swords Player's Guide, and interestingly, it actually does refer to them as Skeleton Knights throughout the Ice Palace coverage on pages 70, 72 and 73. On the subject of the source tier, should "Moldorm (A Link to the Past)" be renamed to "Mini-Moldorm" since it's the most recent guide form, there are already several Moldorm articles, and "Mini Moldorm" is fairly common and even in the A Link to the Past/Four Swords Player's Guide? Or should we leave it alone due to The Minish Cap? How about Moldorm/Swamola? LTL (talk) 18:28, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * There was the Tail Key (along with Tale Keyhole and Tail Cave) in Link's Awakening that depicts a Mini Moldorm, so I wonder if it was a conscious translation in that game or if the translators overlooked the reference to the enemy. Regarding Monblin: I suppose so, though I don't know about the Ocarina of Time 3D Prima guide. LTL (talk) 23:00, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Least Favorite NIWA Wiki?
Is Zelda Wiki your least favorite NIWA wiki? What's your second least favorite, if that's in first? Results May Vary (talk) 01:14, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't reliably say, I mean I only go to like 2 of them. I go to Wikirby occasionally, but Kirby's FANDOM wiki is much more exhaustive. Smashwiki is probably on my lower liking, due to its orientation to a specific section of that franchise's fandom it is and how unfriendly the terminology it uses is to outsiders. How was 12-year-old me supposed to know what a "buff" or "nerf" was when I first visited? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:28, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, I've edited WiKirby before. It has over 3,000 article now, so it's definitely catching up to Kirby FANDOM, kind of like formidable rivals by this point Results May Vary (talk) 01:30, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Anything to get away from intrusive ads is good by me. The amount of different Nintendo franchises I play is surprisingly low. I only got into Zelda because I liked Link's Awakening DX on an online emulator years ago, after I had tried the first game. LA is so much more beginner-friendly. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:32, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The big problem with WiKirby for me is its default layout. I went as far as to develop a Monobook skin for them (which was successfully added), but the WiKirby Classic skin is just uncomfortable & hard to adapt to. It should be a secondary option, but sadly nobody was on board with that--at least people can decide to switch to Monobook on there, so. Also FANDOM is about more than just intrusive ads--there's them forcing changes on wikis without community input, which is definitely not good, among other things Results May Vary (talk) 01:35, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What even is "FANDOM?" Is it some sort of corporate enterprise? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:40, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No, Wikia's the company--they just renamed their eponymous Wikia service to FANDOM, in order to attract more traffic or become more social media-y or what knows what else Results May Vary (talk) 01:42, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Spruced Up the Place a Bit
Hi Doc, I spruced up the place a bit. I expanded upon the sidebar (based on super mario wiki's), added a Link icon next to the username, and expanded The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, even going as far to specify that Toon Link is only applicable to the Super Smash Bros. series (he is "Link" in the main series, including TWW, PH, and ST). Results May Vary (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I saw the Lunkhead sprite in the upper right (named him that in that ALBW playthrough I used to expand the info yesterday). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:39, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Tartnuc and Soldier
Interesting observation, but as far as the Kamigami to Triforce Shogakukan guide is concerned, they're soldiers. LTL (talk) 03:49, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Re:Moldorm vs. Moldworm
At this time, I can only confirm that they're 「モルドアーム」 in the Kamigami no Triforce Shogakukan guide, but that may be worth looking into since the name of one other enemy from the game, Kodongo, apparently had a minor change in the Four Swords version guide. LTL (talk) 22:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Re:Wall Master CDi
You can find issues here - it's in Dutch but they claim to be referencing English materials (oddly enough, one of them formats the Sakado boss as "Ironknuckle" and another as "Iron Knuckle", which didn't become the norm until Ocarina of Time). I don't know about the Wall Master variant or Sancromy, at least from the page I referenced. LTL (talk) 22:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Expandable option
Hi, Metalex thinks we could have an expandable option for the infoboxes, like in the Goron article. An example of something expandable is like with the Kremling Krew article on Super Mario Wiki. Results May Vary (talk) 05:08, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yup, I made that suggestion in an edit summary on the Zora page. I'd be curious if it could be made so the sections that would be expanded could be picked and chosen each time, so a section with 30 or so items is expandable while one with only 1 or 3 in the same infobox always shows all items. If it's not possible or just too much of a pain to do, don't worry about it, just curious. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:14, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Wait Mario Wiki always uses expandable? I'd only want expandable for very large lists. If theres no better option for the meantime, then i guess we'd have to use that expandable option for all Results May Vary (talk) 05:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That's not what I meant, I mean it's an all-or-nothing thing. If "expandable" is set to "yes," then every parameter that could conceivably need expandability in any context (for groups, for example, the members and member species, and for species, the notable members, derived species, and related species) get the show/hide function added to them, which can be bothersome if one section has 12 and another has only one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:30, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

"Zelda Wiki"
In case you're wondering about all these "zelda wiki" terms i've been placing in pagetitle, main page, and such, it's to help with google search results. this isnt because i'm like FANDOM but it's so that the option is more out there, especially from having more distinction due to the closure of zeldapedia. Results May Vary (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Re:Nut and Knuckle relations
I think as far as The Adventure of Link goes, Iron Knuckle definitely started out as a substitute of Darknut and was basically the same thing in everything but name, but later appearances definitely gave them unique fighting styles and designs, with Darknuts being more typical sword-wielding knights and Iron Knuckles being heavily-armored ax-wielders or (in the case of Cadence of Hyrule) bare-fisted. Stalfon may be somewhat similar but it's still identifiably Stalfos and appears alongside them in the next game, whereas the same cannot be said of Darknut and Iron Knuckle. Plus, if we go into timeline shenanigans (as Ocarina of Time was written with the Imprisoning War in mind, A Link to the Past itself being a prequel to the NES era), it gets a bit loopy if the reader tries to determine enemy variants in a chronological sense, which can seemingly change at any time. Overall, it's probably safer to categorize it as a relative than a variant, and I was also thinking we maybe do the same for Wall Master / Wallmaster since they also never appear together in the same game. LTL (talk) 02:05, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Main page & community portal
Alright Doc, so I've added a community portal and main page to Triforce Wiki. As the other administrator, what do you think? Do you like how it looks? The news section is pretty barebones however, so hopefully we'll get that sorted out. Results May Vary (talk) 22:30, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Pretty good, I'd say. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:32, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Re:Cadence screenshots
Oh, I guess that's just how the Switch takes screenshots natively. LTL (talk) 18:28, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yep, it's digital only, though I imagine a "definitive" physical release might happen later if the game gets a series of support updates (and it would seem like the game already anticipates that since it is labeled "v1.0.0" on the title screen). The game is a lot smaller than Super Mario Odyssey if you're curious though, at ~677MB compared to ~5.7GB. And I really shouldn't be surprised that TSR ripped into the graphics already, but that makes things more convenient. LTL (talk) 19:04, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Re:Ganon and Ganondorf's alternate forms
My rationale is similar to when there was a conscious effort to limit mentions of "derivatives of derivatives" on the Mario enemy pages, but yeah, the Breath of the Wild sequel might change our understanding of Calamity Ganon. LTL (talk) 23:27, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Messenger
Hey there. Mases here, from Zelda Dungeon. Do you use messenger at all. Discord, Skype, Slack, Facebook, or any other way to contact you to chat? Mases (talk) 06:40, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I have a Discord, but currently I'm exhausted from a long day of lawnwork (which will be resumed tomorrow. I have an enormous lawn.) Whatcha interested in talking about? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:44, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually I'd be interested in knowing your discord as well, doc. I know metalex123 wanted more direct communication with you as well Results May Vary (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd be willing, but I'd prefer to not post it in a publicly-visible place for probably-rather-arbitrary reasons. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:33, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Good point. I'll give you a hint where to find my handle: Super Mario Wiki Discord channel. I use the same username on Discord as here, Mario Wiki & elsewhere. Results May Vary (talk) 05:12, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Ye, I haven't actually joined that yet either ^-^;; Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:23, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

One Away...
We are one article away from 100? what will the big 100th article be? :O Results May Vary (talk) 05:46, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmm, regarding numbers like that, I think it would be appropriate to make a Rupee article. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:02, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * True, I was thinking of starting a Rupee article some time considering it's one of the major subjects without an article Results May Vary (talk) 06:14, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I made it, but it still appears to say 99...? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:34, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Sometimes the cache takes time to refresh. Should say 100 now Results May Vary (talk) 13:29, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure took a while, I refreshed a while after and even then it hadn't changed. It has now, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll probably ask porplemontage how the cache instantly refreshes on mariowiki.com Results May Vary (talk) 20:51, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Armos Knights
Doc, how would you go about making a page on Armos Knights? That's another confusing one Results May Vary (talk) 12:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Regarding dungeons of the same name - what about dungeons that are in completely different locations like Koholint Island's Turtle Rock, or dungeons that have the same name in certain languages like the Dark World's/Lorule's Dark Palace and Ocarina of Time's Shadow Temple having the same name in Japanese? LTL (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess if the Spirit Tracks versions of Hyrule and Hyrule Castle aren't split-worthy, then it's fair enough to extend that treatment to other places. However, about that Lost Woods example: in addition to technically having different spelling, "mayoi no mori" is already a stereotypical area in Japanese media (with the Mario franchise having at least three) that it's conceivable that "fushigi no mori" was created as a play on the phrase on two separate occasions. LTL (talk) 23:00, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Re:Soldiers vs Guards
If this were the Super Mario Wiki, I'd say that the naming policy tells us that the in-game versions take precedence, so we'd be using the recent spinoff to call them Guards. However, I'm still not sure if you want Triforce Wiki to stick to the same policies, so giving them the Soldier title might be preferable if you want more page consistency overall (with Guitar Guard being the odd one out). I'd say the colors, like other enemies, don't need to be split. I'll also add that English guides earlier than A Link Between Worlds only refer to them generally as soldiers, guards, or knights interchangeably (except for the Ball and Chain Trooper, presumably since it started out as sort of a miniboss). I'd say they should be split by weapon type since, unlike Moblins where the weapons can be somewhat game-dependent, the weapons have given them a reliable behavior and Japanese label. LTL (talk) 18:28, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe that's correct. LTL (talk) 23:00, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll have to double-check, but I believe they move exactly the same and the Blue Guards have the same name regardless if they're holding a shield or not - it's the red ones that are just referred to as Sword Guards. When set to Japanese at least, they're all uniformly called Sword Guards and have their color in parenthesis. Also, in other games, the normal soldiers/guards at least have different blades from the 'Sword' version (it's more of a dagger or shortsword; they're not 'Shield' Guards after all). So yeah, it's a little convoluted, but I'd follow the Japanese names here. By the way, regarding A Link to the Past - do you have any idea if the game's witch is supposed to be Syrup? The fact that Maple's design replaced the witch's assistant in the GBA version seems like a pretty good indication (and on that note, I feel like anything we could have covered in a prospective "witch's assistant" article would be easily covered by the Maple article, since there's really not much else to say about it). LTL (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * There is this rather odd quote on page 31 of the A Link Between Worlds Prima guide: "As an inside note, this character appeared in The Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past, but she was much younger." Though it's referring to Irene's grandmother and not the witch from Lorule, it's most likely hinting at the GBA version of the assistant. Then again, the witch from Link's Awakening isn't referred to as Syrup either according to the remake (which keeps her blondish color from DX). Zelda Encyclopedia apparently does call the witch from A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening Syrup, but I trust that even less than I do Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, and it may have come from Zelda Wiki as well. (Speaking of which, they also claim that "Maple" is in Irene's internal filenames, so the developers probably kept "Mapes" in as a gag after making Irene her own character, but I may check later if there are any references to Syrup.) Overall, I'm leaning towards merging since there's not much that entirely distinguishes them. Back to Guard/Soldier - on page 123 of the first part of the Kamigami no Triforce Shogakukan guide, the different versions of Spear Guard have the same name but have their attack method in parenthesis: 「槍兵士 （突撃）」 for charge, 「槍兵士 （槍投げ）」 for throw, and 「槍兵士 （草むら）」 for bush. By the way, is Archer another name for Bow Guard? LTL (talk) 21:25, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I haven't noticed Archer anywhere, so that's why I removed it from the Bow Guard article. Another thing about the "Witch" is that if that's the setup, there should probably be a disambiguation page or a category for other witches in the series. Also, it doesn't seem to account for the second "Witch" from Lorule (then again, I believe several minor characters have identically-named counterparts in Lorule, so it ought to be decided if they should be split or not). That's just how I feel it should go for now, along with Assistant/Maple, at least until we can gather more information. Regarding Tower of Hera - it's called "Tower of Hera" once by Sahasrahla, "Tower Of Hera" once by the bully, "mountain tower" by a fortune teller, and "MOUNTAIN TOWER" twice during the ending. If you count the GBA version for the SNES article, the location name is "Mountain Tower" when entered. So overall, in-game references for Mountain Tower outweigh Tower of Hera and, if we were splitting same-name places based on location, you could even make a separate Mountain Tower and Tower of Hera article. Anyway, about the Guard: if we consider that basic soldiers are technically not in Cadence of Hyrule, should the name of the article actually be "Soldier" instead? Or, alternatively, should we have them in the same article as friendly Hylian soldiers that appear in 3D games since that's how they seem to be treated in A Link to the Past and Four Swords Adventures, akin to enemy and friendly Zoras? LTL (talk) 13:40, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * About Ball 'N Chain Guard: in the Link's Awakening remake, scanning amiibo for a special chamber can give you the "Ball and Chain Trooper's Chamber", so that is the most recent in-game reference. LTL (talk) 13:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Break & Zelda Dungeon
I've been taking a break from editing here for a while because I'm busy with the DK Wiki merge. Also, I've been a bit worried about telling you this, but Zelda Dungeon wants to merge with us or vice versa (since both wikis dislike Zelda Wiki), and I know that you had reasons why you didn't like Zelda Dungeon. I also don't want to do what Zelda Wiki did and sell out to something (like Gamepedia) without consent from the community. That and the wiki just got hosted like 2 1/2 months ago. I'm actually trying to help them rebrand & fall more in line with Triforce Wiki's vision, as that's what they were willing to do. So yeah, please don't be upset at me. Like I said, I won't pull off anything without you, LTL, Doomhiker, and Archagent's permission. I gave them a list of changes they should make if Triforce ever does consider merging. Results May Vary (talk) 19:33, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Zelda Dungeon's fine, but I'm unsure of my feelings on a potential merge. I think they should be able to keep their neat artwork, I'd just like us to stick with official ones. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:13, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I actually merged all their fanart to one page, when i asked them, and removed them from mainspace: https://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/Zelda_Dungeon_Wiki:Fanart . Tbh, i don't like their fan transparency to images, which is what we are trying to avoid, but i doubt we'll come to a good conclusion on that... this is tough, i know, his whole reason for approaching us is because according to mases, they've been trying to catch up to Zelda Wiki for years now, and they think it would be more efficient if both wikis combine their resources. i myself am actually unsure about a merge myself Results May Vary (talk) 23:08, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm open to this idea currently, though I'd like to see what LTL thinks. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, though I am paranoid about this being an elaborate trick from them. Know what i mean? Results May Vary (talk) 23:20, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Thaaaaat seems like a stretch. I'm cautious, but I don't think there's any ill will. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:27, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, me neither. I just know that me, you, archagent, LTL, and Doomhiker put real love & effort into the wiki. They have a GFDL license, and with all editors' input, they may change to CC BY SA (the license of Triforce Wiki). The name "Zelda Dungeon Wiki" doesnt sound universal enough actually, so thats why i asked if they could rebrand, maybe make their top navbar more condensed like Bulbapedia's. This would make sure that the connection to zelda dungeon isnt lost (they were a little concerned about that). I guess all this time, ZD Wiki has been casual alternative, but is now trying to be more serious, especially with recent wild, crazy events ongoing. Your thoughts? Results May Vary (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm honestly unsure, we need to surpass Gamepedia Zeldawiki at some point as they aren't doing their job, but we also need to make sure w keep our own quality up. Anyways, I need to go to the store, so I'll be AFK for a while. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:40, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The main concern for me is the quality of Zelda Dungeon's articles. Take the Marin page for example. Her page has the problem of citing every single piece of info that does not even need to be cited, it organizes her Link's Awakening appearance poorly, and the rest of her appearances are organized into "non-canon appearances" which is a major red flag. And her page is featured. We should note that our goal is not only to be an independent Zelda Wiki, but a high quality one. Doomhiker (talk) 00:08, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * In that case, it might be better to ask if anyone there instead wants to help expand our own wiki from here. Standards need kept, and if they want to distance from the Gamepedia Zelda Wiki, they need to have better ones than theirs. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:30, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It's good that Doomhiker mentioned those points. I've checked around the wiki, and due to it being very casual, there was never much of an emphasis on a serious mariowiki-type wiki on their part. We don't want to lose this vision along the way -- we've definitely come a far way. Admittedly I see potential in this idea since it can theoretically help us be a stronger alternative, and so that there's less split in zelda wikis. At the moment a merge was just proposed -- I'm reminding again that i will not go forth with a content merge without them making some content quality changes, and without the final decision from everyone on Triforce Wiki. We are in this choice together Results May Vary (talk) 06:09, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Anyways, in that case, maybe a content merge would not be the best way to go, maybe just a further collaboration, which would also skip the need for any proposal-type thing to have to happen. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:16, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * These decisions really stress me Results May Vary (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm just gonna keep doing what I've been doing. By the way, I think the Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule article should be under "King Daphnes," as that is what he is consistently called throughout Hyrule Warriors. Admittedly, this is obviously so as to not flood the text field every time he does something, but it's still a thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:30, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Then should the King of Hyrule article be more about unnamed kings in general? My impression was that the king counted as a character incarnation (like Link, Zelda, Malon, Tingle, etc.). LTL (talk) 21:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Doomhiker brings up a good point, and I figure it's appropriate to add my two cents here as well. One of my concerns with the idea of merging besides possible incompatibilities with the direction and vision is, if a goal of Triforce Wiki is to eventually replace Zelda Wiki's NIWA spot which frankly should have been revoked as soon as Wikia successfully archived Zeldapedia but I digress, I'm not sure if Zelda Dungeon can realistically qualify as an independent wiki since it is apparently owned by a "Dungeon Gaming Enterprises" - so that is maybe worth taking into account. I'm not privy to any internal politics going on with NIWA besides the explanation that Zelda Wiki's position became "honorary" due to being a founding member, but I suspect that replacing them with their longest-running non-FANDOM rival would be a hard sell. I agree that a name like Zelda Dungeon Wiki gives the false first impression that it is more about dungeon walkthroughs or is even a subsidiary of Zelda Wiki and not instead about the series as a whole like what was properly conveyed here, and my informal experience has told me that websites that include a wiki never surpass dedicated wiki sites in popularity. I also can't help but feel a little suspicious because Triforce Wiki is rather small at the moment so I worry that a merge at our current size and numbers would probably look more like a dissolution. However, the decision is ultimately yours. I would like to see Triforce Wiki grow as I see potential in it (as I'm sure we do), but if you also feel like it is too troublesome to maintain, I completely understand if you choose to merge. And if you choose not to do it at least for now, perhaps some sort of friendly affiliate arrangement can still be worked out since we both see Gamepedia as our main competitor? LTL (talk) 21:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Ultimately, I think probably the best thing to do is keep doing what we're doing, and if any individual editors from any other Zelda wiki want to help out here, let them. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:11, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, everyone can keep editing here like usual. This was just a proposal since i was approached over this and was wondering about the community's feedback, and I do see potential in Triforce Wiki. Thats why I don't want to sell it off. If anything, if Zelda Dungeon ever wanted to come here, or if both wiki sites merged elsewhere (like if porplemontage hosted a zelda wiki), then that would be better option for us. Hopefully Zelda Dungeon isnt upset about our opinion but I think we should take charge of the wiki thing. It's too risky to just relinquish control over the site. Results May Vary (talk) 23:26, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, while it should be your - and only your decision, as you are the person who runs the site, and I feel at the current moment to just have a small affiliation with Zelda Dungeon, just by keeping the link on the sidebar implying "hey you should check out these guys". Doomhiker (talk) 01:26, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

porplemontage
Just letting you know that in case I cannot afford to maintain the wiki's hosting in case it gets too much traffic, porplemontage will be willing to help us take over. I'm glad because we want to make sure this project does not die. I believe we can do this -- we're definitely doing great -- over 100 articles ready with all this hard work! (and these are mostly major subjects as well!) Results May Vary (talk) 15:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Zelda Encyclopedia page?
Hi Doc, was wondering if you and LTL were ever thinking of making a Zelda Encyclopedia page, to clarify like this book does here: https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia, especially if zelda gamepedia won't do it just curious as it might be an interesting one to do (since the timeline hyrule hystoria has already been done). by the way, the zelda dungeon wiki merge was cancelled due to conflicting ideas. i'll keep them in the sidebar though Results May Vary (talk) 00:20, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It should be mentioned, though I've no specific plans for it. I own the book, but have never opened it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:27, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It's been a while. Do you know if there's any evidence that the Zelda Encyclopedia copied from other Zelda Wikis? Zelda Wiki has a page assuring that the Goddess Collection does not copy from wikis, but I don't think it's proper closure on the issue, considering one of the main reasons why we started this wiki in the first place. Results May Vary (talk) 00:13, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That apparently ZE listed ???? as "Hand" for OoA after zeldawiki did so due to it being called "the hand in the toilet" in some thing makes it seem pretty cut-and-dry to me. Could say, they were caught red-HANDed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:17, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you think there's something fishy about the Goddess Collection statement in that link I sent? When they say 'it is extremely unlikely that they would be drawing names created by the fanbase', this is more of a self-promotion. They also single out Zack Davisson as the only person who copied from wikis but there are probably others who did the same.

Also, is it coincidental that Zelda Encyclopedia has a dark blue cover? It's too obvious for me to consider it a coincidence. Results May Vary (talk) 00:24, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I touched on some of this here and elsewhere, but I also want to add that their rationale for "Odolwa's Insect Minions" is either hilariously disingenuous or just plain incompetent. Here is the sentence in question, from page 45 of The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask Player's Guide: "If you keep scoring hits, he’ll eventually send out his insect minions to harass you, then drop rocks from the ceiling." In other words, it was just an off-the-cuff description that the writer made for both insect types that a wiki editor morphed into a name for one of them, which would be evident if they were transparent enough to quote it properly. In fact, this can be seen on the Internet Archive by anyone, so it frankly comes across as false gatekeeping or damage control. I do have other suspicions (like how Art & Artifacts labels the witch from A Link to the Past "Syrup" on page 388 despite only having that name in the Oracle games and The Minish Cap), but if they really intend to double down then we may have to make getting a Japanese copy a priority. Not to mention, the treatment of the Japanese Zelda II names in Art & Artifacts is eerily similar to how Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia handled Super Mario Land 2 (i.e. ripping romanized article titles sans macrons). The Encyclopedia cover connection is perhaps a bit too conspiratorial but there is at least some strange defense at play. LTL (talk) 00:59, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Based on all this evidence, we can safely confirm that the Goddess Trilogy cited from fan wikis? Results May Vary (talk) 01:28, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe Hyrule Historia itself is fine, but its follow-ups have massive red flags. LTL (talk) 01:45, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Another problem I immediately noticed with them claiming that Miyamoto and Aonuma being involved is that Miyamoto was not involved in any of the three books but Aonuma was involved with Hyrule Historia (which you believe is the one that is fine). Results May Vary (talk) 01:56, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I almost forgot about that. Something else I find interesting is that two of the translators in Art & Artifacts also worked on Hyrule Historia - one of whom is GlitterBerri (I generally find her translations trustworthy but now I can't help wondering which parts of Art & Artifacts she was responsible for). LTL (talk) 02:59, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Re:About the King of Hyrule article I'm envisioning
Actually, I could swear we already had a King of Hyrule article - what I was thinking of was the Kingdom of Hyrule article, which is currently more about the Royal Family. I'd say the king is more like a role rather than an incarnation, so that's a good way to handle it, though maybe move some of the information from Kingdom of Hyrule, rename that article to just Hyrule, and briefly mention the named kings but add to their sections. LTL (talk) 23:26, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Link's Awakening
Hi Doc, so I've been playing Link's Awakening. Pretty cool how they have some Mario enemies in the game. Now remind me, is it BizHawk that you want me to use for sprite-ripping? When I'm done with the game, i'll expand upon the Link's Awakening and the DX page Results May Vary (talk) 18:42, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The Knight (guardian) was a temporary name i made because there was a knight (enemy) and a knight (guardian) in page 102 of the nintendo player's guide. here's the Knight guardian entry, for reference: https://i.imgur.com/6J4ggul.png Results May Vary (talk) 21:25, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, so for comparison, what's the enemy? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:34, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't seem to find it; chances are that i added it there by mistake. I thought it was me misnaming "Soldier" but looks like i was wrong. Anyway, so is the "guardian" the ball n chain trooper? Results May Vary (talk) 21:38, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is, to my knowledge at least. It may actually have a different name in JP too, but if so I am unaware. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:41, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, sorry for fixing up so many names. thats why i asked for your help. thank you :) Results May Vary (talk) 23:15, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
 * So it's like basically, I try and find the right names for all the characters, items and other subjects, and that tends to get me lost along the way. Know what i mean? That's exactly the reason we have this wiki -- to clear up all the naming confusion, haha. anyway much appreciated for helping me and the wiki with proper naming Results May Vary (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah I getcha. And np. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Identifiers
While I get your reasoning I do feel like we should fully spell out the game names, due to removing the "The Legend of Zelda" part is like abbreviating them, which I feel should be avoided, even if the "The Legend of Zelda" part is very common. Doomhiker (talk) 23:33, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I care mostly about not giving people carpal tunnel syndrome with unnecessary typing. Because I've gotten close. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:46, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
 * They can just copy and paste the title. Doomhiker (talk) 23:52, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It still seems really unnecessary in this case when it's just a stock thing. It takes up space and is ultimately unhelpful. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:55, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It may be something we can consider when we've made enough progress on this we'll have less typing on our hands anyway, but right now, it's just extra work. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Traps
Regarding the Trap enemies is it safe to say that they are the Spike Traps of the Zelda franchise, with there not being anything to say otherwise? . Doomhiker (talk) 00:42, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
 * "Trap" and "Blade Trap" are definitely the same thing. I'm not sure which name we should use, but it's probably Trap. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:30, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

LA JPN names
Where do you get the Japanese names for enemies in LA such as Goomba? Doomhiker (talk) 18:31, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The other Zelda wikis are generally competent in that regard, and in this case it's blatantly obvious anyways. If there's any question, LTL can probably be asked to cross-reference. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:17, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Stubs
So doomhiker suggested that before we create new pages, we expand upon the stubs. What do you personally think of this idea? I know you have pretty much played all the Zelda games (judging from how comprehensive your edits are), and i havent played all of them. this means articles lik Triforce, Princess Zelda, Link: i won't be able to fill in all the blanks (i did for Triforce on z1/z2 earlier though). Results May Vary (talk) 04:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That's generally my thought. I've played all the "main" ones except for Four Swords Adventures for GCN. However, I have played neither of the "HD" rereleases or the GBA ALttP. It's also been a while since I've played the DS games, so my edits on them may also seem a tad lacking in comparison to my other ones. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 08:49, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Re: Zelda II palettes
Should we go re-rip them & upload over the original ones? Results May Vary (talk) 16:31, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

TLOZ board game
We already have a page for the board game. Doomhiker (talk) 23:53, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * As the board game is in Japanese, we can just use that name and use about template where needed. I would prefer to not have the identifier be the creator unless necessary. Doomhiker (talk) 00:16, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Minor technical problems
In case you're experiencing some problems, such as some pageloading & whatnot, I need to apologize for that. Seems like the host is having a bit of technical difficulties, such as page loads. I make sure to backup the wiki locally (including its sql), in case you're ever worried about losing your work. I mentioned earlier that I have a backup of someone who will host in case something goes wrong (porple). Results May Vary (talk) 04:12, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

ALttP names
Thank you for helping out on that, I felt bad because getting the names correct can be pretty tricky, so I didn't want to mislead anyone with the names that I added. Remind me, how did you find a good source for the ALttP names? Results May Vary (talk) 19:28, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Varies. I look to see if there's a citation for the Player's Guide anywhere else, and also some of LTL's edit summaries. I'm still not sure on all of them, especially when the soldiers get involved. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Once again, thank you for fixing the color/names on the sprites. It's always emabrassing when i get it wrong, despite my best efforts... Uploading all those sprites is a big task, so I was bound to make some mistakes involuntarily... By the way, mind adding the Shudan Bubble sprite? i cant find what that one is Results May Vary (talk) 05:15, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It's just four Bubbles in a clump Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:54, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Images?
Hi Doc, I noticed you don't often add images on articles that you create. May I suggest to add the image template on articles that do not have images (or not enough of them)? Results May Vary (talk) 20:55, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Re:Pyramid (of Power)
Personally? Not particularly - it's in a different location - but if we're taking the approach that locations of the same name are iterations/incarnations of the same place, then yes, they have the same name: 「ピラミッド」. LTL (talk) 21:25, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Link to the Past/Awakening Bubbles
How do we know that those enemies are meant to be Bubbles? Given their behaviour and different names. Also, where was the Fire Faeries name used? Doomhiker (talk) 18:12, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Which page? Also, where did the GBA names come from? Doomhiker (talk) 18:18, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Re:Whole titles in the middle of body paragraphs
Sorry about that. I just feel that full titles should be used when possible to prevent use of abbreviations, as personally just saying "Awakening" for example feels awkward too. Still, I am fine with using abbreviations despite my preference for full titles, so I will wait for a consensus to be made before continuing to use full titles in the middle of body paragraphs (of course, I will only continue if the consensus is to continue). I'll ask RMV. Doomhiker (talk) 21:15, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I still don't like just using "Link's Awakening", and it is still removing part of the full title. Doomhiker (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I think this is an instance in which a compromise should be made. I personally prefer using full titles because names like Ocarina of Time can be ambiguous and even confused with the instrument if worded a certain way. However, while I do think it should be a policy, I do not necessarily think it should be enforceable because Doc has said before that it can be tiring to type out the full title. I would moreso make this a case that if someone does not fill out the full title, another could fill it in themselves or even simply type "the game" instead of the game's name. Let me know what you think about my idea. Results May Vary (talk) 00:37, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

About Page
I have made an about page. I hope you like it -- a lot of it has my perspective in it. It feels too preachy when a lot mentions me. As the other administrator of the wiki, do you want to add some of your input and story to the wiki, especially since you technically were the original founder? Thanks Results May Vary (talk) 06:21, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * If you add anything, I do ask to keep history relating to drama with other Zelda wikis to a bare minimal (like Zelda Archive, which hylian pi wanted to forget about Triforce's involvement with). I already mentioned Zelda Wiki's FANDOM acquisition in the paragraph but that is because it was a main reason behind why the wiki was created, without getting into the personal aspects Results May Vary (talk) 06:29, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Would that include my feelings of ZeldaWiki's overuse of Encyclopedia? Sorry for the late response, I'm in the midst of ripping pre-rendered sprites from a GBA game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:24, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I actually mentioned that part in the About page, since it actually is a big reason why the wiki was founded. So no, it doesn't include that part -- I mostly meant the whole Zelda Archive incident or directly insulting other wikis. Results May Vary (talk) 15:10, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Sword and Shield pages
Okay, so this one will need careful planning. If we ever are to make an article on swords and shields, how will we cover swords as a generic item versus the swords that are used by Link? Also, I noticed your talk page is getting long, so I moved over the Archive template from Super Mario Wiki if you want to use that. Results May Vary (talk) 01:17, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably like how fireball items are covered on MarioWiki. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:01, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Re: Identifiers and length thereof
I was thinking of it looking like this: Kreepy Krow page on Mario Wiki. What i'm also trying to say is you dont have to fill out the full article -- the redirect identifier, such as (Link's Awakening) or (A Link to the Past), is there for a reason. Do you not like putting in links that are redirects to the full page? I'm just curious to hear why you still don't want the full titles, as i thought i made a compromise with the shorter identifiers as redirects to the full name identifiers Results May Vary (talk) 03:46, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually to be honest, let's start a proposal system for this, since there's already debating over the article identifiers. I don't want to make all the decisions -- the community should also have a say in things. Results May Vary (talk) 03:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah but there's currently only like 5 consistently-active members. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:56, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * That's true. Do you want to add links to the identifier redirects instead while writing articles (e.g. Wallmaster (A Link to the Past) instead of Wallmaster (The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past))? Results May Vary (talk) 03:59, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer that it just be the identifier itself, the long ones bloat the hidden text anyways and in some cases may take unnecessary room when written in infobox "related"-type sections. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:20, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Pikit
What are your thoughts on Pikit? I notice that its entry in the A Link to the Past article already links to Like Like, but in the GBA version, Pikits and traditional Like Likes coexist. I know the SFC guide refers to them as such, but it may also be worth looking into how the GBA guide handles it (it did change Kodondo after all). LTL (talk) 15:53, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Unless further info comes up, I'd see it as sort of like the various Poes in OoT. It's likely they were trying to move Like Like in a new direction entirely, which didn't pan out due to LA only using the original; note how LA mixed elements from the original and ALttP (most visible with the Moblins/Pig Warriors) which continued into the Oracle games (like with Anti-Faerie/Whisp). OoT's Like Like's ability to extend itself around comes across to me like attempting to put a bit of the Pikit's ability in it, and then TP's Deku Like seems like a callback so obvious I'm surprised it has a different name. Adding the original to the revised version is ultimately a shoddy way to justify the Shield Shop existing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:15, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Reissue titles in sections
By which I mean something like this. I just don't think mentioning reissues in sections is wholly necessary since, in all cases, it's either the same name as the original (e.g. Link's Awakening on Switch - how would it even get represented in the section header when it releases?) or the original title plus some specific identifier like "3D" or "HD". For the most part, everything that's in the original can be reasonably assumed to be in the original, and major differences can just be noted where appropriate. It's not like the Mario franchise where there are a few more variables and something like the title Super Mario World 2 can be removed from Super Mario Advance 3 (although I have been considering bringing the same topic to their attention since such cases are still rare, but it would be quite a chore to go through all of it at this point). Overall, it just bloats the title. Do you think we can change our approach on this one? LTL (talk) 15:53, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with having just the original version's title so long as the subject at hand isn't only relevant to the reissue. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:10, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I personally prefer just the main title of the reissue. For example: The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask / Majora's Mask 3D Results May Vary (talk) 20:26, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * What about The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past / A Link to the Past/Four Swords? LTL (talk) 12:04, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I think we can use the normal one, aside from perhaps Like Like and the bosses with an upgraded version in the GBA version. Though that being said, it's still A Link to the Past; "/Four Swords" is the name of the multicart, of which there were several on GBA. For instance, the "superpacks" for the Crash and Spyro games, and there's also one with the first three Harry Potter games. The only real difference is that Four Swords is multicart-exclusive (until the anniversary reissue). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:30, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is an interesting debate. I'd like to consider ALttP and FS as separate, especially from FS's DSi re-release. However this would eventually get confusing. It wouldn't look nice to write out The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past / A Link to the Past / Four Swords at all. I'm pretty sure Mario Wiki covers ports/remakes in the same section as the original. Else, by listing every reissue in the title, that would look insanely long Results May Vary (talk) 19:34, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Well as Doc says, A Link to the Past/Four Swords would be more of a compilation than a remaster, so it wouldn't be part of the section header. Still, suppose Link's Awakening for Nintendo Switch had an altered title, or someone wanted to represent it over the original and DX versions? It would make such headers needlessly long. Plus, there's no telling how future reissues will handle it. So, if the reissue must be in the header, I'd prefer we use a format like The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask/3D for now, since the titles just aren't transformative enough to relist in the same space. LTL (talk) 12:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree, so like GBA-specific info can just be mentioned in a specific paragraph of like a The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past section. How should we handle sections like The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons and The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages? Those are also very long Results May Vary (talk) 17:16, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The way we currently do (Seasons/Ages) is official via Smash. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:26, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Link article
What do you think of it thus far? I'm trying to base it on the Mario article on Mario Wiki. Results May Vary (talk) 20:00, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Re:Flying Mushrooms
I noticed that too, but I think it's just a header inconsistency on the website since it also refers to Goomba in plural. The Prima guide for A Link Between Worlds refers to it as Zirro singular. LTL (talk) 10:30, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, but also notice that there are clearly multiple Octoroks, yet it is referred to in singular. I believe the A Link to the Past Player's Guide mentions it once, where it and Pikit are plural. LTL (talk) 23:44, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose, but there's still room for error here. The names of the Zirros assets used by the website are https://media.nintendo.com/zelda/links-awakening/assets/img/characters/foes-slide-bomber.jpg and https://media.nintendo.com/zelda/links-awakening/assets/video/characters_foes_bomber.mp4 (the rest mostly line up except for the Moblin Chief assets referencing King Moblin), suggesting that they were going to use the name from the Link's Awakening Player's Guide before someone noticed fairly late that it was different in the A Link to the Past Player's Guide and didn't bother or have the time to check other sources. I just think we should play it safe for now and stick with guide over site in this case, considering singular Zirro has been established and used throughout a guide, versus only one instance of a Zirros listing. Besides, zelda.com is the same domain that recently revived the forgotten Dragmire quagmire after all. LTL (talk) 06:11, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I assume that none of the people who knew better than to blindly follow zelda.com are the same editors who much later did exactly that to Dark Horse (if you look at some of the recent moves like CiaoCiao, they even claim that "CiaoCiao is referred to as YipYip in all versions of Link's Awakening prior to Link's Awakening for Nintendo Switch," which is a pretty incredible way to avoid admitting that Zelda Encyclopedia is ever at fault). But yes, for Link's Awakening info, it would be Bomber and King Moblin, with Spike Roller as the title exception for obvious reasons; the article would still be Zirro because the A Link Between Worlds Prima guide was made post-Nintendo Power. LTL (talk) 06:42, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The wording of the Mario Wiki policy is a little vague, but in practice, any Prima Games guide after the end of the Nintendo Player's Guide series has the same weight (some Mega/Super to Big enemies for one thing). LTL (talk) 06:59, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Which book exactly? (Also a correction - King Moblin is referred to as the "Moblin Chief" via amiibo-unlocked special chamber, so that would get priority over King Moblin and Big Blin.) LTL (talk) 13:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I totally forgot about that. Thankfully for us, YouTube has some pretty in-depth flip-throughs. The name changes I've noticed are as follows: Pig Warrior is Boarblin, Cue Ball is Hydrosoar, D. Poon is Hardhit Beetle, the blue Camo Goblin is Blue Goo Specter, and Dekudon is Avalaunch; Zirro(s) isn't mentioned. Technically, I believe the Dreamer Art Book would otherwise be lower priority than the Link's Awakening Player's Guide; however, since it actually comes with copies of the game, should we consider it akin to an instruction booklet? Also, note that the Japanese version does not list any names. LTL (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree, these names are an improvement. I'm not sure how the All-Stars booklet is handled since I don't think it's relevant as a naming reference, although the manual itself is used as the current source for Roto-disc. That aside, the fact that they were added to the English version tells me that a localizer may have been thinking, "Well, with Prima indisposed, we need to put the new names somewhere," so I think in this case we should just treat them as more recent regardless of source priority. We can bend the rules a bit since we're not Mario Wiki, after all. LTL (talk) 23:59, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Dungeon layout
Doc, if we're going to describe every room of a dungeon in the layout section and the path that Link should take, how would we got about it? As far as I know, the rooms are unnamed Results May Vary (talk) 19:00, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Well it would depend on the situation. We could use "the (size) room with the (thingy)," "the adjacent room," "the room to the (direction)," "the room through the (door type)," lots of ways. In Deepwood's case, "the room with the barrel" seems like a no-brainer for example. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I would prefer not guiding the player, and just saying what each room is and what is inside it. For example, in a dungeon with a spire, we would describe the spire's layout and then describe its side room, referring them as "the room on the bottom of the spire", "the room on the right part of the middle of the spire", etc. Doomhiker (talk) 21:09, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * True, we're not a strategy guide, and in the case of many dungeon items, thy can generally be collected in a number of orders (particularly with keys). I think areas that are more straight-up linear (more commonly at the ends of dungeons) could us it to some extent, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:40, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Encyclopedia oddities
Hey, so in the interest of expanding the Encyclopedia article, I actually checked it out recently and noticed some stuff of note in the Enemies & Monster database. Remember how Gamepedia said that Horsehead is "not considered Canon" due to Art & Artifacts? Well, on page 185, there's an entry for Horsehead with the text "See Mazura." Sure enough, on page 192, the entry for Mazura lists Horsehead as an alternate name and states "Mazura, also known as Horsehead," right in the first sentence. Helmethead is also given similar treatment. And to think, if they were a little more attentive, this wiki might not exist. Another thing of note is that, while I don't have the Japanese version on hand to compare and confirm, the database just seems to have been totally rearranged with random priority going to English localization. An example of what I mean is this: on page 184, the Helmasaur entry mentions Hiploop and Iron Mask as alternate names, yet Helmaroc King and Helmasaur King are separate. Things like Bubble and Anti-Fairies (169), Dodongo and Dodongo Snake (175), the Gyorg boss and enemy (183), and Wallmaster (211) are together among others, yet Sand Crab (201) and Lobarrier (190), Like Like (189) and Pikit (197), Darknut (173) and Chief Soldier (170), Shadow Link (202) and Dark Link (173) etc. are separate. On page 205, the entry for Spiked Beetle states: "A spiny character that originally appeared in the Super Mario Bros. series." and there's even a stray Shy Guy redirect to Mask-Mimic on page 203, but yet on page 209, Thwomp (Thwimp) from Link's Awakening DX and Oracle of Seasons is grouped together with the Four Swords Adventures Thwomp, which is almost assuredly not the same subject. And then there's page 193, where Moldorm reads like it was taken directly from Gamepedia: you've got Moldorm aka Mini-Moldorm grouped together with the NES, Twilight Princess, Phantom Hourglass and Skyward Sword ones, Moldorm (Boss) aka Big Moldorm not including the NES one, and Moldworm from The Minish Cap. Page 176, Eyegore is split by color but Eyegore Statue is not (or mentioned for that matter except that they are described as statues). And Big Blin (166) and King Moblin (187) are separate, even though the latter's description reads "In Link's Awakening, a Big Blin is the boss of Moblin Keep," suggesting it was edited late. Oddly enough, on page 183, the Goriyas are technically listed separately (mostly by color), even though they have the same name. I almost want to seek out the Japanese version, but by its own admission, its lore isn't authoritative either, though it might potentially be interesting for the article if the localization really did change existing info to suit Gamepedia; I was more prompted by figuring there should be some closure on Horsehead at least. LTL (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I see Odolwa’s Insect Minions on page 196. They're described as "moths and other bugs" and the end of the description says "See also Moth." Turn to Moth on page 194: "Moths often appear alongside bosses, including a Mothula in Oracle of Seasons, the Shadow Hag in Oracle of Ages, and Odolwa in Majora's Mask." I know these are technically two different things, but couldn't the writer tell that "insect minions" (which, as an edit summary points out, was originally a generic phrase from page 45 of the Player's Guide) is supposed to be a general term for both types? LTL (talk) 23:59, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Boss battle location names?
Okay so something I've been wondering is how we'll describe certain boss battles in depth if it's in a location. You know how with like Mario Wiki, the Donkey Kong boss levels are only boss levels (e.g. Very Gnawty's Lair? This isn't the case with the Zelda games. I'm thinking like what page should we do an in-depth coverage on, let's say, the final boss battle against Ganondorf in both The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. Or should we just integrate it with the location in which it takes place at? Results May Vary (talk) 20:17, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why not to just put the dungeon/region...? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:18, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
 * True, is there any relative example from Mario Wiki? I think I'm just too used to the Donkey Kong boss level pages :P Results May Vary (talk) 20:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about like for infoboxes, I prefer using character or species infoboxes regardless. The old DKC trilogy was so formulaic (down to using the same engine and graphics) a lot of things work for it specifically that don't for others. Some things just never changed, like how Forest Interlude's still one of the best BGM in video games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:48, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I meant more like covering the boss fight against Ganondorf in-depth in, let's say, the Ganon's Castle page for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, for instance. Covers both the dungeon and boss fight aspects. Results May Vary (talk) 01:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd put the boss fight aspects on the boss's page. Zelda dungeons are complex and non-linear (which is why I liked DK64 so much). Ganondorf can have a couple of paragraphs per game section without much of a hassle. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:18, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Yesterday
Yesterday was a terrible day for me. I must apologize for being such a jerk yesterday. I just reached my limit when he closed zeldapedia.com because at the time i felt there was no repair to the zelda wiki situation Results May Vary (talk) 22:26, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It's fine, I'm not gonna hold a grudge about this. Just let this be a learning experience. Now, is it true you really dislike the series? If you do, that's fine, I just want you to be honest about it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:41, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I was in denial yesterday. I was trying to "force" myself to move on from the Zelda series, feeling that I have failed with trying to make a good wiki with it. I actually like the Zelda games, especially The Wind Waker, Link's Awakening, and Ocarina of Time. I still love Mario and DK more. Results May Vary (talk) 22:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * We all have those days, it's what we do with those feelings that matters. I too have been tempted to throw everything away, but I've seen too often it never ends well. I've lost friends that way and am really worried about them. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:49, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

The Way Forward...
Hi doc, i still feel extremely terrible about all of the recent events. So much so that I originally closed Triforce Wiki since the series felt completely sour to me due to these massive incidents... What do you think the next plan should be with Triforce Wiki, moving forward? Results May Vary (talk) 20:17, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I just want to provide a wiki for Zelda that's competent and not held down by concepts like "canon." If we can replace Zeldawiki on NIWA, that's great, if not, so be it. Nepotism and grudges will only take one so far. I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing for now, and if the server gets to be too much for you, give it to Porple. I've been really busy with schoolwork and my own monetary concerns as of late, so I haven't done as much on here in that time as I'd hoped too. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:21, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I really would like to pay for dedicated hosting but that's a last resort, and even then i'd have to do cheapest option without automatic renewal. I did move off wimpykidwiki.com because Triforce Wiki was having connection issues because of the current hosting plan. It would be really nice if porplemontage reopened the wiki... Results May Vary (talk) 20:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * In hindsight I feel that Triforce Wiki was a better option than Zeldapedia all this time... Results May Vary (talk) 23:59, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I got Bluehost to fix some site loading issues with Triforce Wiki, so it should be more stable now. I've also been moving off my other wikis to increase the loading times (they're now managed by Grifkuba.net). Also, I've completed DK Wiki and have been going back to editing wikis such as this one (Triforce) or Jiggywikki. I want you to know that I still deeply regret the events that occurred earlier this month. I wish I never closed Triforce Wiki to begin with and thus betray the trust of my community. I also regret what happened with Zeldapedia, as the move appeared to be done in error. Results May Vary (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Agahnim
Yeah it's mentioned on page 36 of the Oracle games' Prima guide. I assume it's an error because it wouldn't make sense for Agahnim to return into the game without explanation. Results May Vary (talk) 23:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Suppose we should identifier it then. That guide was written after PRIMA started doing official guides, right? Because they'd done unofficial for a little while. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:11, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Figurines from Wind Waker/Minish Cap -- Same or Different Page?
When we get to making the Figurine pages for said games, should we merge into one page or separate them? I'm a little uncertain on how to handle this one. Results May Vary (talk) 05:37, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Have them merged, maybe have different listing pages, like with the smash trophy page for MW. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Good point. By the way, should we archive your talk page? It's getting really long Results May Vary (talk) 06:20, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll do it after 100 or so. On MW, I do it after 160 headers. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:23, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Mini Bow-Bow
RMV brought this to my attention a while back, but I thought I'd run it past you. What do you make of Nintendo.com referring to "the fashion-conscious Mini Bow-Wow in Madame Meow Meow's shed"? At first glance, I took it as a species name for both miniature Chain Chomp creatures, but the fact that it's also called "the Mini Bow-Wow at Madame Meow Meow's house" indicates it's specifically a name for CiaoCiao. LTL (talk) 12:04, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Eh, I take that more to mean "the relevant Mini-BowWow that actually gives you a thing." Implicitly. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:43, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Palettes
Again i apologize for the mistake between Link Awakening DX and the Oracle games. i'm just trying to get the sprites up, but I don't aim for any inaccuracies or accidents. Results May Vary (talk) 03:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Re: Blue Wallmaster in Oracle
I actually do not know what they're called. The whole thing with Wallmaster (TLOZ) and Wallmaster (ALttP) and the floormaster name is confusing and so i made accident, since i'm rushing to get all these sprites uploaded before bedtime. Since i have to sleep soon, do you know the distinction between the wall/floormasters? i havent grasped that one yet Results May Vary (talk) 07:03, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Capitalization priority?
Okay, so in The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap, I've noticed that some items are capitalized in one of two ways. For example, when you obtain a Bottle, it is capitalized as "empty bottle", but on the Start menu items screen, it is capitalized "Empty Bottle". What should be the priority for the name? I know the article itself should be Bottle, but I was wondering if you or LTL have come up with a naming priority for capitalization. Results May Vary (talk) 20:53, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I tend to just lowercase things that are real-life objects, like arrows and bombs. I've been linking to "empty bottle" on occasion, actually. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:33, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I mean it does make sense to do that. I do the same. So lowercase priority name for real world objects (like 'empty bottle'). How about small shield vs Small Shield (which is the first shield Link gets in Minish Cap). Same or different naming priority? i assume it's different because it's more of a proper noun, pertaining to a specific shield, than small shields in general. Results May Vary (talk) 01:17, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I may have to think on that one, though if the second word is consistently capitalized the whole thing probably should. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:50, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It's the same case as 'empty bottle' -- lowercase when Link obtains it but uppercase from the items subscreen Results May Vary (talk) 02:54, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh well in that case it's probably just capitalizing all first letters for everything. They do that with things like items and RPG target names even if it's grammatically incorrect, like how in-battle in PMTTYD Magnus von Grapple is parsed "Magnus Von Grapple." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:06, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

We can use both depending on the game where applicable (i.e. use capitalization as the article title but use lowercase when not linking it), though this may be difficult to keep track of. LTL (talk) 13:25, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Zelda Encyclopedia name copying proof
Hi Doc, I've already found solid evidence for Arts & Artifacts and Zelda Encyclopedia copying from Zelda Wiki and Zeldapedia. Mind if I share my WIP draft with you and LTL? Results May Vary (talk) 20:31, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * G'ahead. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Download here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484532701509058560/654421161689481219/text.txt Results May Vary (talk) 20:44, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll look at it some time later, have finals today. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:48, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Alright, let me know what you think thus far. Results May Vary (talk) 20:50, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I researched Oumai/Calamareyes earlier too: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484161386419716096/654472031139790887/calamareyes.txt Results May Vary (talk) 23:59, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Anyway, do you think it's well written? Hopefully we can get the investigation done sooner before Wikia deletes one of the wikis with their combined wiki platform or something. Results May Vary (talk) 07:21, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Playing LADX right now and it does indeed say "Mysterious Woods" on the map. Otherwise it's pretty good. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:25, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/475727464228716559/654824572872556544/ze_research.txt Here's my next draft. I updated it to nullify the Mysterious Woods argument, as I stand corrected on that one. Results May Vary (talk) 22:16, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Super busy today, I'll check it later. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:16, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, that's definitely something. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:08, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * This is shaping up nicely, but I should point out that the macron observation might be incidental since the same thing happened with the Super Mario Land 2 articles in Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. I'll leave that to your discretion. LTL (talk) 13:25, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree LTL. I was thinking of adding some of your and Doc's notes in the research Results May Vary (talk) 15:39, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay, so I added a couple of more 'cases' of name-copying (and even one where Zelda Encyclopedia puts the two Angler Fishes under the same boat): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/571800898926280713/658888346851868722/ze_research.txt Results May Vary (talk) 04:28, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting, particularly with Zeldapedia having more reasonable practices than ZW for a time XD Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 08:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * This is some great work. The only suggestion I have at the moment is that you can probably start with my "Odolwa's Insect Minions" / Moth observation, particularly since they seem so proud to use that as an example despite being so easily debunkable as a name. You can add that the Majora's Mask 3D Prima guide also refers to them generically as seen on pages 44 and 121 (same quote): "After taking a few hits, Odolwa calls down a rain of bugs that pursue Link around the arena. It pays to slay these little pests, for they often drop useful items, including Deku Nuts and Recovery Hearts." The only thing we're missing right now is the Japanese name for the insect minions, assuming they were still split from moths in the Japanese Encyclopedia. LTL (talk) 13:53, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Which moths are you talking about? And yeah I'll add that in the research (and i'll try with the toilet hand that Doc talk about as well). Update: I added both ???/Hand and Odolwa's Insect Minions in the research: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/475727464228716559/659059073735720979/ze_research.txt . Results May Vary (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Moths are other creatures summoned during Odolwa's boss fight. While this is also mentioned as an "annoying swarm of lethal moths" in smaller text, the "insect minions" in the main text is most likely a catch-all phrase for assorting the moths and unidentified bugs together. When Zelda Wiki added "Odolwa's insect minions", they also left the entry for "Moth" alone in the same edit, which may be why the English Encyclopedia distinguishes them (although moths appear in other games). Anyway, I appreciate the shoutout, but there's really no need to credit me in the final version - I just think it's something anyone could have observed if they knew where to look and chose not to take Zelda Wiki at their word (frankly, the fact that they do expect that of their readers is insulting and desperate). Maybe might want to remove the Internet Archive mention as well since there was an incident a few years back when Nintendo apparently had issues of Nintendo Power removed. LTL (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I didnt include any archive.org reference to the guide in the summary. I also removed attributing you for this find, as well as adding some more of your notes (like odolwa's insect minions likely describing both types of bugs). Results May Vary (talk) 17:16, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/475727464228716559/659082918454493194/message.txt I modified the insect minions case. Is this good? Results May Vary (talk) 17:21, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd revise "In other words, it was just a description that the writer made for both insect types that a wiki editor morphed into a name. In the smaller text of the Nintendo Player's guide, it is mentioned as an "annoying swarm of lethal moths", so the "insect minions" in the main description most likely assorts the moths and unidentified bugs together." to "In smaller text directly below, an "annoying swarm of lethals moths" is also mentioned, but the "insect minions" in the main description most likely assorts the moths and unidentified bugs together since it only mentions the insect and rock obstacles. In other words, the "insect minions" was just a description that the guide writer made for both insect types that a wiki editor morphed into a name for one of them." I think it's a bit more clarifying this way. Maybe I'd also move the part about Majora's Mask 3D Prima guide afterwards so that whole chunk stays on the topic of guide quotes. Other than that, looks good. Perhaps it can be accompanied by a snipped scan of the guides showing the appropriate text. LTL (talk) 18:50, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Re:Goriya
I don't have immediate access to that information, but suppose I may be interested in procuring a copy of the Japanese Encyclopedia - would you consider how it's classified in that book to be sufficient, or is that source too tainted at this point? LTL (talk) 13:25, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Re:Hebra
Well, the Light World and Dark World locations are generally split, though it's important to note that page 3 of the Japanese Kamigami no Triforce manual lists 「（デスマウンテン）」 directly under 「ヘブラ山 」 and is the only location to display an alternate name. The Lost Old Man's location is given as "Death Mountain" in all versions of the ending. Four Swords Adventures also only uses "Hebra" for Hebra's Hill I believe, not Death Mountain. This is already more than Mount Crenel or Eldin Volcano get in their own games. I think the simple solution would be to consider it Death Mountain, and mention that the chilly Breath of the Wild region is named after it. LTL (talk) 13:25, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Re:Mau
According to this guide, Rā is the dragon head and Mau is the wolf head. Zelda Encyclopedia has it correctly. My guess is that Art & Artifacts meant to label the artwork for the dragon head on the left as Ra and the artwork for both wolf heads as Mau, but the text positioning is awkward. LTL (talk) 13:53, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Re:loanwords
I'd prefer we err on the side of caution myself; 「ウォース」 (Wōsu) seems liklier based on the word 「ウルフ」 (urufu, wolf) and possibly 「スタルフォス」 (Sutarufosu, Stalfos) rather than intentionally meant to be the word "Worth" (given that they did not steal experience in the Disk System version), and this logic would mean having a second Gooma article. LTL (talk) 17:06, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems probable that they're a humanoid predecessor to 「ウルフォス」 (Urufosu, Wolfos). At any rate, I think it's safer rendering actual loanwords that unambiguously fit the context (like how Mario Wiki generally handles it) rather than transliterations of foreign names, which feels a bit too much like a stab in the dark. After all, it was "common knowledge" at one point that the name of Error was supposed to be Errol, but then people started to notice that it was supposed to be paired with 「バグ」 (Bagu, Bug). Admittedly, "Error" is usually written as 「エラー」 (Erā) and "Errol" is usually written as 「エロール」 (Erōru), but the point still stands I believe. LTL (talk) 11:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure. They are equivalent to the Light World's thieves and it makes sense given their behavior. It's also hinted at in the SNES Player's Guide (on page 86: "Not only were robbers picking the pockets of travelers on the village paths..." and on page 87: "PICKPOCKET POPULATION"), though the GBA Player's Guide drops the connection and also describes them as "thieves" on page 62 and a "thieving creature" on page 63. LTL (talk) 13:37, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Re:Piranha
Unless I'm missing something, they're only referred to as "FISH"/"fish" on page 96 of the Link's Awakening Player's Guide and aren't mentioned in the other ones, though Prima can be double-checked. LTL (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * They're also called Fish on page 101 of the official LADX Prima guide. Results May Vary (talk) 23:19, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, that guide is shared with the GBA version of A Link to the Past. If they only show up in Goponga Swamp, Eyeglass Lake and Talus Cave, then I'm fairly certain that they don't show up elsewhere in the Player's Guides. That just leaves the Prima guide for Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages. LTL (talk) 23:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Page 122 of the Oracle games' prima guide also says Fish (i should really make scans) Results May Vary (talk) 23:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No in-game mentions; "Piranha" is derived from the Japanese name it seems: 「ヒレピラニア」 (Hire Pirania, Fin Piranha). LTL (talk) 00:00, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough, Gamepedia claims that they're "simply called Piranhas in the guides" in the page history. I'm guessing that was secondhand information. LTL (talk) 00:51, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Re:Walltula vs. Skullwalltula
I do wonder how in-depth that was given they left Japanese ReDead alone, and I'm fairly certain that the Twilight Princess HD guide uses Walltula just like the original. I was actually thinking of a new naming guideline: if a subject has multiple appearances and the latest one is a remake, the subject's in-game name from the latest original appearance will have precedence over it. The original reason I was thinking about this was because of cases like Magic Powder and Roc's Feather, which are more commonly named as such in other games but were only recently parsed "magic powder" and "Roc's feather" in the Link's Awakening remake. This would also mean moving things like Ball and Chain Trooper and Moblin Chief to Ball 'N Chain Guard and Big Blin, respectively. Let me know what you think. LTL (talk) 10:16, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * In the case of the items/equipment at least, it's probably because highlighted text was added to the remake (though it also existed in the Oracle games), which is how the capitalization became inconsistent. LTL (talk) 10:32, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems Skullwalltula it is, unless it's named Walltula in added Twilight Princess HD text that I'm not aware of. LTL (talk) 10:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It's also called a "trap" on page 39 of the NES manual (FDS pg. 38: トラップ) and a "Trap" in The Wind Waker (via Tingle Tuner text). I believe it's just described generically in most guides, though in the Super Famicom Kamigami no Triforce Shogakukan guide, the big-sized one is labeled as 「トラップ （大）」 and the regular-sized one is labeled as 「トラップ （小）」 on page 134 of the Jou volume - not sure where exactly "Giant Blade Trap" comes from. Either way, Trap would take priority for the manual and in-game references, but I can check more guides later. It'd help to know which dungeons they appear in though. LTL (talk) 15:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Link's Awakening DX Player's Guide?
According to this resource, later editions of the Link's Awakening Player's Guide also cover the DX version. Do you know if this claim is legit, or was it conflating the Prima Games guide? LTL (talk) 15:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Manondork
What do you make of this page from Nintendo Power's The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past comic by Shotaro Ishinomori? For context, Link dozes off next to a tree in the Dark World, who tells him about Ganondorf, and Link wonders if it was all a dream afterwards. The story depicts a scruffy-looking burly fellow with a sword on a dark horse (possibly where his unnamed black stallion comes from), who is shown transforming. I first thought this was a depiction of Ganondorf's transformation into Ganon, except two things: 1) the text "I was one of them..." accompanies the panels, which may imply that it's supposed to be showing the talking timber turning into a Moblin (more of an evil monster than a stationary tree), and 2) when Ganon appears in the last two chapters, he wields a trident instead of a sword and has a different color scheme and clothing (albeit the same necklace). Would you consider it to be the first ever physical appearance of Ganondorf, or a greedy Moblin who later became a wise tree? LTL (talk) 15:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm probably overthinking it: I overlooked an obvious armored Moblin appearing the next few pages, and there's nothing in the game or comic lore about the Dark World changing someone into more than one creature. Do you have any preference on the way to upload the image to the wiki? Mario Wiki uploads full scans (for example), but I notice that certain other wikis tend to blank out the text boxes. Could just be that other publications are more protective about reproducing the raw text however. LTL (talk) 13:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Re:Horseface and Oxface
That could explain why that Gooma boss with the supposed Gūma enemy artwork was added to the NES version - maybe it was always intended for the FDS version? May also be why the Doomknocker is a "Hell Gūma", given Ox-Head and Horse-Face in mythology, though I always thought it might've meant to be "Helm Gūma". LTL (talk) 21:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)