User talk:LTL

Welcome, thank you for joining! I do apologize for mistaking you for being uninterested--like i said, I feel it can easily be misunderstood why another zelda wiki & have to explain to others what makes this one different. Thanks for sticking around. Whenever there's Zelda-type discussions to be done, you can come on Triforce Wiki. I'm considering on starting up a new logo for the wiki, since the generic triforce is just a placeholder for now. Otherwise, the style here is very similar to Super Mario Wiki, which is intentional.Results May Vary (talk) 00:13, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I can sometimes be somewhat socially awkward (and use lots of words), since i tend to go in-depth with my speech. You & Doc have been inspirations to me in that I try and adapt your naming hierarchy across wikis, and being careful not to use fan terms. Just wanted to let you know :) Results May Vary (talk) 00:16, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. Thanks for the kind words! LTL (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Degu/Dig
Lots of other languages seem to translate it as "big." It wouldn't surprise me if it's a combined corruption of "Deka" and "Big." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:45, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I had considered having them as part of a glossary, like Stal-, Geld-, Mold-, and -fos, which I know NIWA Zeldawiki does something similar. However, if that were done, we'd obviously want to keep speculation as to the in-universe reason for the root words existing (like claiming they're Hylian or something) to nil. As for Degrock, that may have not been in reference to Jeakrock/Zeeklock, but just boulders/rocks in general. The heads all break out from a huge boulder in the middle, after all.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:26, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Futubasha
Do you have any idea if the Futabasha guide for Zelda II was licensed by Nintendo? I ask because I'm curious if the artwork has any degree of officiality to it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:49, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Acheman
Do you know if "Acheman" has a valid English source for the name, or is it just "this is a logical transliteration based off all evidence?" I couldn't find it in the manual, but I suppose Nintendo Power may have mentioned it? I don't think that Devil World thing counts. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:24, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah in addition, what should we call the Princess Zelda from Zelda II, since she is different from the one of the first game? Results May Vary (talk) 12:04, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could just split same-name characters for each game where we know that they are different characters. For example, Link from OOT and MM would be merged to Link (The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time) as we know for a fact that they are the same character, while Link from Spirit Tracks would be separate from the Link from WW and PH. If this would happen there would also be a general page to direct users to the page for the character in each game, using the main template. This would apply to Zelda, so the Zelda II Zelda would have a separate page called Princess Zelda (Zelda II: The Adventure of Link) as we know she is a different character from the Zelda in the first game. Doomhiker (talk) 12:59, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Nah, different reincarnations of Link should all share a page so we don't get a clusterf***. They're the same in spirit. The exceptions would be alternate forms, as well as Young and Toon Links in spinoff games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm with Doc. Splitting character incarnations would be confusing, not to mention it can be subject to change depending on who is telling the legend; for instance, the Zelda from Zelda II is sometimes conflated with the Zelda from the first game as seen in Nintendo Power and the Valiant Comics, and the website version of the timeline implies that the Link from Oracle of Seasons & Oracle of Ages is separate from A Link to the Past & Link's Awakening (as opposed to Hyrule Historia, which states that it is the same Link and has a more logical placement to suit that notion). LTL (talk) 16:07, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The Zelda series is really confusing with naming in general, correct? Results May Vary (talk) 16:19, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

The confounding case of Dark Black Shadow Link's shadow
So how do you think we should handle the Dark Link/Shadow Link/Black Link/Link's shadow situation? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * OK. I know there is some variance with the JP names as well, and given there's the similar case of Oyablin vs Bossblin (ie two similarly-named entities, though with them there's not a lot consistent between any of the incarnations), I figure we might try to get a complete view on that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:21, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Speaking of Oyablin/Bossblin, Zeldawiki claims that HWL's Big Blin, Stone Blin, and "Boss Blin" character are all Oyablin. Do you know if this is true or not? It'd have made sense to me to use the other name for Stone Blin/ "Boss Blin" as a bit of a continuity gag and actual differentiation.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:15, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Timeline redirect
Do you think it was a good idea to redirect Timeline to Hyrule Hystoria? Maybe add a "redirectshere" if there's another thing that discusses timeline? Results May Vary (talk) 19:25, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Lost Hills
Don't mean to be a bother coming at you with so many questions, but do you know the Japanese name of the Lost Hills from the first game? Because Hebra's Hill from FSA is suspiciously similar, right down to the rocks. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:17, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I see. Upon realizing that Castor Wilds is actually Tabantha Wilds (with Tabantha also being a group of locations in BotW) I've been wondering if various locations are the same as each other, but lost in translation. I'm especially curious if Tabantha Frontier specifically is the same as Castor Wilds. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 09:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Eyegore Statue
What is your opinion on how we should handle Eyegore vs. Eyegore Statue? I figured we could lump them together like Gamepedia Zeldawiki does, or have Eyegore Statue refer to the TMC one (and presumably the FS one, and potentially the other Eyegore-based statues with roles), but the FSA one presents a problem, as it more closely resembles the statues, but acts lik the LttP one. Thoughts? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 09:36, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The watching ones that are also key to solving the linked dungeon in the Oracle games are animate to a degree, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:47, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Those little decorative things that constantly watch Link and appear in most dungeons. They only take up one 16x16 tile. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:14, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Potentially. They have the right "ears" to be Eyegore-based, and there was also another in LA that had the "shoot the eye" puzzle. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm an idiot, I remembered that special ones appeared in the Ganon dungeon for combined Oracles (where Link has to travel the way none of them point to in ersatz Lost Woods style), but I forgot that they are given a name there. They are referred to as "Eyes of Deceit," though this clearly links to their special behavior. Other ones in the game simply have their eye follow Link as he walk by, some (with darker colors) have their eyes closed and can occasionally be pushed for puzzles, and at least open-eyed one is a "shoot the eye" puzzle. They come in numerous colors throughout, which is used for a puzzle in the case of the pushable ones. By the way, if the top banner on the former is of any indication, Zeldawiki is considering merging with Zeldapedia. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:38, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Link gets warned about them before going to the dungeon. The fact that the now-Gamepedia Zeldawiki never bothered mentioning them made figuring that puzzle out a bit of a pain for little me.... Anyways yeah I figured that would make replacing them at NIWA pretty much a given since everything's all going downhill even more than I thought it could. It would have been better for them to have not joined Gamepedia, even if their lack of funding would have killed it. Better to die a hero than live long enough to become the villain, you know? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:20, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Anyways, from what you've told me, I think the main immobile Eyegore statue article title should either be "Eye of Deceit" or "Eye statue," which do you think would work better? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:56, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I've played through both ways, and I think I recall it in both, though I could be wrong, as it's been a few years. It might be that different advice was given in the other. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:30, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Re:Fire Bago-Bago
I assumed as much. Since I don't trust Nintendo Dream's translation as far as a Deku Scrub can throw Biggoron, I'd just go with either what the JP version of the book calls them, or keep them merged. I'm pretty sure they have the same palette, just appearing different for the same reason as the "purple" Moas and Aches (ie color value differences simply based on location involving intended visibility of outlines in most cases). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:43, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Source tier
Mariowiki's source tier lists enclosed manuals and in-game at the same level. "Skeleton knight" seemed more of a generic thing Zelda said to me, sorta like how Princess Toadstool/Peach calls the boos in SMB3 "ghosts." Granted, I can't really remember the capitalization situation to a T... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:53, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * While that makes sense for current games, in older games, there was often inconsistencies that could be traced to technical reasons or just literal translation. What's with the second name in the Niol box? Was that in game in the JP version? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Since the equivalent Japanese name was clearly intended as a generic term (particularly with Master Stalfos's JP name), I'm inclined to believe "Skeleton Knight" was a literal translation of the line and nothing more. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I do not know. The only game-specific guidebook I own is for Tri Force Heroes. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:06, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * They have a badge in Nintendo Badge Arcade it would seem. I do not know where to find out what it is named there, if anything. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:21, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems they're going to appear in Cadence. Perhaps that may help later? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:51, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's actually out? Do the other names match up with pre-established JP names? It seems too similar to the ALttP one to be coincidence, and isn't it a Western-produced (and 3rd party) game anyway? If so, they may have been unaware of the JP names to begin with and assumed they were the same. I'd check Darknut and Iron Knuckle specifically. Remember the "Rudy the Clown" thing on MarioWiki.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:39, 14 June 2019 (UTC) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:39, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I was talking about this dude. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:06, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I see. Regardless, they're still "Zoras" in most games, and ALBW went out of its way to ensure they were the same thing. Again, I'd consider a 3rd party game to be a good clue for names, but not for separation on what is generally the same subject. (Speaking of, I'm still not sure how to handle sword/spear/bow Moblins...my preference would be to keep them in the same article, but that could get convoluted for some games, and doesn't even scratch the surface on the situation with Soldiers) Is the Stalfos Knight kind of like King Ikana in that way...? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:36, 15 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Anyways, I think we should treat Sutarufosu Naito as simply a recursive translation error (but still valid enough for the NioL box), as I find it highly unlikely that a game that references so many obscure enemies as once (Daira, Puffstool, Shrouded Stalfos, and what appears to be the Zombies from Awakening, to name a few) would unknowingly create an enemy with the same name and highly-comparable appearance and behavior to a previous enemy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Quite interesting! Technically speaking, 'nut and 'knuckle coexisted in The Wand of Gamelon, though this is the first time a game with direct input from Nintendo had them both. Additionally, Kargarok should have been Kargaroc on the wiki anyways, as only the TWW spelling was actually in-game. Anyways, hope Nintendo gets inspired to bring Lanmola, Daira, and (real) Wallmaster back because of this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, it makes sense to have all the color variations on the same scale. Just because Moblins, Guards, Lizalfos, and Bokoblins debut in different games doesn't mean they should use different scales because their debuts had different palette systems, it would get confusing. Admittedly, it does trip me up with Tektites in ALttP/ALBW... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:55, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Quite interesting! I think we should stay fairly close to the Mariowiki policies, but we're still in the beginning stages so I mostly just want to see what works. Anyways, the Moldorm situation has been on I'v puzzled over quite a bit. For the original, it was in an enclosed instruction book and the "Tail" one was in-game, though it might be more convenient to refer to at least one by the alternate name. I'd prefer to keep the original on Moldorm since it's the actual Moldorm, though. If I ever help to make a Zelda game in a similar situation to Cadence I'll rectify the hell out of the Tail situation. And that's not even getting into whether Moldworm is the same as the original, because I'm really starting to think that was the intent. Of course, we'd need the JP ALBW guide to ascertain that.....additionally, on the subject of the OoT Great Moblin, I think it'd be best to refer to it in-text on the Moblin page as "large Moblin with a club," as using the Versus Book name when it already gave normal Moblins an alternate translation seems iffy. On the OoT page and template, probably "Moblin (club)" would do. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:38, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. A further note on the Dark Palace/Shadow Temple thing, the Hyrule Warriors games use "darkness" for its purple element/barrier; that being the same as OoT's shadow seems likely, and makes it so all but the orange "lightning" one match OoT ones. (Sorry if that didn't make as much sense as I hoped, I'm tired right now.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Tartnuc and Soldier
This is a bit of a long shot, but I've been playing ALBW recently. Anyways, as you probably know, one of the two main armor designs for the Soldier enemies closely resembles the typical design for Darknuts. The armor is used for the Ball & Chain Troopers, Bomb Troopers, red pitchfork-wielding soldiers, the unused cannon dude, and indigo/blue sword-wielding soldiers. In ALttP, the indigo sword-wielders are unique to the upper floors of Hyrule Castle iirc, but in ALBW, the blue sword-wielders are as common as the generic green sword-wielding soldiers. Anyways, what I'm curious of it whether these blueish sword-wielders, whose behavior is used for the sword-wielding Darknuts(/Moblins/Pig Warriors/Shrouded Stalfos/glitch Trendy Game operators) in the GBC games are ever indicated by JP materials to be Tatonakku themselves. I'm particularly curious as this design is absent from FSA, which has its own Darknuts (Cheif Soldiers) and its Ball & Chain Troopers are given a vastly different helmet. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:54, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

It's a really minor thing based on a fairly easy mistake, but...
I do find it amusing that this thing that is the spitting image of Daira's artwork is being misidentified as a Zazak here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:34, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, they eventually fixed it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Moldorm vs. Moldworm
I'm curious, do you know what Swamola is called in the ALBW Japanese guide? Because I considered that "Moldworm" might just be a rename for Moldorm in Japan, since Moldorm is a worm in the original game and the Satellaview variant. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:34, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, now I'm even more suspicious about this, since I've seen that Moldworm's TMC behavior is pretty much Moldorm's TLoZ behavior, but with the "eating" part added. The whole "coming out of the dirt segment-by-segment and slowly looping around thing." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:55, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Wall Master CDi
Do the guides you cited also refer to the small punchy ones in TWoG as Wall Masters? Also, is "Sancromy" the proper spelling of the thing in Ganon's Lair in TFoE? Because Gwonam pronounces it as "san-CREW-me." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:25, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Hoo-hah
You are on fire today! Thanks so much! Results May Vary (talk) 19:26, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm fresh off Cadence of Hyrule (even though I'm not very good at the whole rhythm thing right now), so I figured I'd get us some new game info. I also intend to upload screenshots and maybe create articles on the exclusive content. LTL (talk) 23:59, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Nut and Knuckle relations
I considered them as being roughly the same situation as Stalfos and Stalfon, ie an extremely similar substitute that's basically the same thing, and as such is basically a variant. I suppose following that logic, Ache should count as well for Keese. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:36, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Makes sense to me. Ultimately, the nonspecificity with the parameters is what I was going for, so as to not misuse words like "species." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:28, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * At the same time, though, Darknuts act basically like adaptationally-difficult N64 Iron Knuckles in TP, with the "moving slow and having two phases" thing. The Darknuts in there just seem to be encountered in pairs more often. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:30, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Cadence screenshots
I'm curious, why are the screenshots of Cadence of Hyrule: Crypt of the overly-long extended name you are uploading of the .jpg file extension? Is it one of those screen-eating games or something? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:26, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose the game's download-only? When I downloaded Odyssey on my connection it took the entire night XD. By the by, TSR has been getting a lot of rips up for it by the admins, you should check it out some time. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:33, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd sure hope it's a lot smaller, given it's a sprite-based game inspired by a game I only know as a Steam game a friend of mine made an esoteric mod for, and SMO's a vast 3D game of high-poly HD models. Anyways, I may look into it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:00, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Ganon and Ganondorf's alternate forms
I suppose, although Agahnim (which side note I hate spelling) is at least a humanoid and seems to be a middle-east-desert-inspired person (particularly given that concept art of "Ganon the thief" in Hyrule Historia). Calamity Ganon has a humanoid face in his battle, so it seemed valid to me at the time of writing, though now that they've shown a presumably-Ganondorf in the teaser for the sequel, it may need reevaluated. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:57, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Soldiers vs Guards
Sooner or later, we're going to need to make a decision on how exactly to handle troopers/soldiers/Soldiers/Guards and their numerous varieties. Since it seems the best thing to do regarding Moblins is to keep all the weapon-based variants on the same page, I'm not sure what to do with the soldiers. With Moblins, keeping them on the same page is what avoids clusterf*ck, but with soldiers, having them all in the same place seems more liable to cause that. Additionally, if I'm to understand correctly, Cadence ' s "Guards" were only the bow, sword, and "Ball 'N Chain" types. Since I have the Tri-Force Heroes guide, I can confirm in it they are called Soldiers with a capital S. However, aside from the Sky Soldiers and the unlisted Den of Trials "dark" Sky Soldiers, that game only has six variants (Green Sword Soldier, Blue Sword Soldier, Spear Throwing Soldier, Silver Ball & Chain Soldier, Gold Ball & Chain Soldier, and Bomb Soldier; there are also six sky ones, with one corresponding to each). I am unaware how the ALBW guide calls its much more exhaustive amount of variants, nor the FSA one, and I suppose the ALttP one pretty much generically addressed them. Anyways, we need to decide how to split and name these, especially with the "Guard" name only being used for a few. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It probably wouldn't hurt that much to have them have inconsistent identifiers. I suppose the "base" page would be "Soldier," since that's what they were called the last time the generic Soldiers with small blades appeared, correct? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Following that, I suppose we'd use the same article used for the short-blade for referring to Soldiers in general from games that lack said "base" variety, like TFH and CoH. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:38, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I've started on the Guards, from what I can tell from TSR, the ones in CoH that have shields and point their swords upwards are the "normal" guards while the ones that point the swords forward and lack shields are the "sword" guards (or at last, the red ones are). Not sure how this jives with the JP names, though. I'm also curious if the Soldiers that charge with spears should be separated from the ones that throw the spears, since "Yari Heishi" is the only name I can find. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:07, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * From what I've seen, she's only called "Syrup" in the Oracle games and The Minish Cap, and in all of those, her sprite and theme music is based off the one in Link's Awakening. Due to the "Mapes" in ALBW (who the textbox called "Witch" anyways), it might be best to either have "Witch" be split from Syrup or to have "Witch" be the main title for the concept in general. Additionally, "Syrup" is depicted with turquoise hair while the "Witch" has white hair, but I'm not sure if it's been shown how the new LA will do that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:39, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I haven't a source for Archer, myself. Does the crazy indigo sword soldier also have that sort of identifier? Worth noting on the Witch vs Syrup debate is that "Witch " is still the most recently-used "name," so that's where the article would go. I am also curious how to go about "Tower of Hera" vs. "Mountain Tower," since I'm pretty sure in-game dialog calls it the former name multiple times, primarily through telepathy tile hints. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:31, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Personally I'm for having "Hylian/Hyrulean Soldier" be a separate article, due to the enemies appearing outside Hyrule in TFH and them appearing extremely differently alongside each other in ALBW. I'm not sure what should be done about Ambi's guards aside from probably having their own page, or the various types of Lorule Soldiers since as far as I can tell, they're just "Lorule Soldiers" despite having DekuGuard/Sword/Spear/Fireflail variants. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Imp Poe
Do you know if Imp Poes referred to as generic Poes in Japanese? Since apparently the bigger "Poes" from Arbiter's Grounds are "Pōfī" instead. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:03, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Re:Armos Knights (about shared dungeons in different places)
Yes. There could be some exceptions if it's extremely likely it's a coincidence (like the Earth Temples of TWW and SS, that might seem like too...esoteric and random of a callback, particularly with the different themes), but again, I feel the grand majority should be treated the same as the various inconsistent depictions of the Lost Woods and Death Mountain. I've been considering having the forest areas of LA and MM in the same article too, since their JP names are at least pronounced the same, and are both "discount Lost Woods from another world." Turtle Rock should specially stay on the same article, since all three were in different locations, and the ALBW one's existence called back to the original while using the fire theme of the LA one. Additionally, I think any dungeon to share a name with an OoT dungeon should b on the same page as it, as it is both figuratively and literally the nexus of the entire main series, and as such references to it are far less esoteric. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:09, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

About the King of Hyrule article I'm envisioning
I think the article should be about the unnamed Kings primarily, with the named ones being mainarticle'd. One of the main reasons for this is TMC having both King Daltus and the ghost of the previous King Gustaf. Anyways, I think thy can all go in the "counterparts" section of the infobox. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:28, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Pyramid (of Power)
So should we consider the FSA location an iteration of the same place? It'd certainly fill in a lot of holes. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:17, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Progress
Thank you again for helping to clarify and fix some of the naming regarding A Link to the Past. I kind of quickly put together a list, so we could work around the confusion of ALttP names. It's always embarrassing when I realize how much of the naming I got wrong, haha. Thanks so much again -- now six Zelda games have their lists filled in, the first five being from the 20th century (Zelda 1 until Ocarina of Time) and The Wind Waker. Things are going at a pretty good rate I'd say! I just fixed up the main paragraph of Link's article, so now that too looks nice.

By the way, would you consider Legends of Localization reliable? I ordered a digital download of their Book 1 on the first Zelda game. Results May Vary (talk) 20:30, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure thing, and yes, I consider Legends of Localization pretty reliable. I actually had a copy of that book, but I seem to have misplaced it. LTL (talk) 21:15, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Link to the Past Bubbles' names
Which page in the NP guide are the Bubbles from The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past named? And where did the different GBA name come from, and which page? Doomhiker (talk) 18:25, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Regarding the guide that the Japanese name is sourced from in this edit, did I spell/format the guide correctly? I'm not familiar to the Shogakukan guides. Doomhiker (talk) 14:36, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Flying Mushrooms
The flying mushroom enemy has seemingly been called Zirro and Bomber in the past, but the new game's site calls it "Zirros" while in singular. What do you think we should do there? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thing is, there are two Goombas on the screen, but only one Bomber. Might be good to check the ALttP Player's Guide to see how it handles it (though of course the LA one calls it Bomber. Still trying to figure out why it's not red.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:51, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * There's only one Octo getting focused on though, both in the gameplay shown and in the thumbnail. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:35, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Didn't realize this was the same site. Remember when Zeldawiki all but made fun of them for their game-defying fanwanking? How times change. Anyways, most recent Player's Guide called them Bomber, so if we're doing this akin to MW, that overrules PRIMA's later guides for page name. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:20, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah the CiaoCiao thing made me raise an eyebrow for sure. So it would be like "pagename:Zirro, ALttP: Zirro, LA: Bomber, ALBW: Zirro?" Last I checked MW has it as NPG before PRIMA regardless of era. (I've actually had a few meme-type things in my mind involving comparing Zeldawiki's situation regarding DH and LANS to a cartoonish burning office panic thing....) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:47, 30 September 2019 (UTC) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:47, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Apparently the art book has some names in it? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * According to Gamepedia, the "Dreamer" edition of the game comes with an art book, which also renames Camo Goblin to "Goo Specter." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:50, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but on the flip side those names are A:better-suited systematically with the related subjects, B:clearly by someone actually paying attention, and C:absolutely awesome OMG I love those! Anyways, I don't know the full situation, but I think it should probably be treated like that little book that came with SMAS 25th anniversary....which was essentially an expansion of the instruction manual. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:18, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Re:Encyclopedia Oddities
I actually own the book, but have never opened it (though I probably should for curiosity's sake). You'd think with their dependence on it and over-sourcing in general they wouldn't have stuff slip through like that (ESPECIALLY with the series of BotW bridges named after corruptions of the AoL boss names), but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at incompetence at incompetence. I thought "Hand" was the most blatantly-stolen-from-GPZW thing there was, but I found another, a generic description used on the MM enemies page for years now an allcaps "name." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:31, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Goriya
So Zeldawiki has partially split the "normal" and "Coppie" Goriyas (amusingly for entirely the wrong reasons). Anyways, the talk page says that the Oracle of Seasons Japanese guide lists the boomerang-wielding Moblins there as Goriyas. This seems a tad strange to me, since they already had a Goriya sprite in that style, though it would explain why the miniboss is a pair of Goriyas. Do you have any way of confirming or denying this? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:51, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Japanese official guidebooks are fine, from what I can tell. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Hebra
What should we do in regards to ALttP/FSA/ALBW's "Hebra Mountain but we're calling it Death Mountain for English lol" thing? Since BotW had a Hebra Mountain Range, but not a singular "Hebra Mountain." The one in those games itself is a pair of mountains, so I wasn't sure if we should have that under the "Hebra" article or just have a "Death Mountain (A Link to the Past)" article. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:27, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Hm, I was unaware of the ending thing. That guide description almost seems like it's still saying it's a different version of the prior Death Mountain, so I concur that that's something. If we include both in the same article, we'll definitely need to go in-depth there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:49, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Mau and Ra
So Zeldawiki has "Mau" as being TAoL's flying wolf-head statues and "Ra" as being the flying dragon-head statues, but in A&A (and as such, likely Hyrule Graphics) has "Mau" labeling the flying wolf head and "Ra" labeling both types of wall-mounted statue. Any idea which is the real Mau and Ra? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:00, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Hippo Model -- Thanks for catching that
I forgot about the Switch version. I just saw an earlier version of the ZW page say that Hippo Model was a fan name (which searching for an official name). This was probably a coincidence. Source: https://archive.is/yMgul Results May Vary (talk) 16:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

In regards to handling loanwords
So, since I'm assuming we'll be putting English-to-Japanese loanwords as the English words (such as Bazu -> Buzz), should the TAoL enemies with English names (as in, like, people names) written in Japanese also be transliterated to English? I mean like ウォース to "Worth" and アーネル to "Arnel." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thing is, "Worth" is a name in real life, while "Gooma" is as far as I know not. Specifically, "Worth" is an old English-sounding name, which makes sense given at the time, they were trying to capture a pure medieval feel. Admittedly, I was always pretty curious if it was intended to be a corruption of wolf. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:19, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * So what about Pikku from ALttP? Safe to transliterate here to "Pick?" It is essentially a pickpocket, after all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Regarding Error, it wouldn't surprise me if "Errol" was a sort of double-meaning thing that only works with Japanese phonetics, ie one an actual Englishy name and the other a theme naming with Bug. Sort of like the "Larry Rally" joke from the Mario Character Encyclopedia. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:41, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Piranha redirect
Uhh what about the jumpy fish dude? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:43, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Well there were the Cloud Piranhas in TMC....Four Swords have a guide? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Guess "Fish (enemy)" it is, unless there's an in-game sign we're forgetting. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't surprise me if it were an "obvious name"-type fan nickname that people forgot was a fan nickname. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:29, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Big Keeses
According to Doc on Discord, Big Keeses are named Piccolo in Japanese, which proves that they are only a Keese relative, not a variant. May you source the specific book and page, please? Doomhiker (talk) 00:58, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * May you please add that to the page (and the Grim Creeper page for his JPN name) itself? I'm not an expert of Japanese or said guides and how to add their citation. Regardless, thanks. Doomhiker (talk) 01:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I personally feel like Big Keese is still a better name, as whenever Battle Bat is used it's when stating that they're either regular Keese, or a specific group of regular Keese. Doomhiker (talk) 02:12, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, does the exact source you added on the Big Keese page also cover the Grim Creeper's JPN name? Doomhiker (talk) 02:18, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. If I remember correctly, Vires are the devils in Turtle Rock. In that case, the bats they turn into look differently from Big Keeses. I couldn't find a source that names them. Doomhiker (talk) 03:04, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't own the guide, RMV just sent me a screenshot of page 106 on Discord a while ago. There Big Keese is just Big Keese in the title, unlike other titles, as the Winged Demons (Vire's name in the guide), Bone Putters, Kara-koros, and Camo Goblins. Notably, the Anti-Kirby title is also singular. As for the Vire's Keese, while they do have different appearances in LA they still don't look like Big Keese. Also, in the Big Keese description, is only uses the Bat name, which is plural, despite the Big Keese name not being plural. Anyways, I suggest asking RMV for more on the guide. Doomhiker (talk) 03:28, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not really sure. However, it should be noted that in the Switch version the Keese he splits into more closely resemble Vires (though the original ones still looked like they had fangs), while Big Keese more closely resemble their original versions, as they look nearly identical. And regular Keese almost look like regular bats. I don't know how to interpret this change, especially since I never played the Oracle games and thus don't know what Vires split into there. Doomhiker (talk) 14:01, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Docky here, I'd say the later design for Vire Keese is more due to it being on a monochromatic system (and even in the color version, the body of normal Keese is the constant "outline" color). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:26, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Walltula vs. Skullwalltula
Which should have title precedence: Walltula or Skullwalltula? Skullwalltula's technically been used more recently due to the 3DS games, and since they changed "Freezzard" and "Dinofols," it's apparent they went over the scripts to be up-to-date. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:22, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thing about the LA thing is that it's such a thorough reworking of the naming system in many cases. It seems very deliberate. I understand where you're coming from, but ultimately I feel it may cause more harm than good if followed to a T. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Most items are already on a "sometimes they do and sometimes they don't" situation with capitalization, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:34, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Highly unlikely, though I have no plan on getting an "HD" version of an already realistic-graphicked game. I'm about to go to sleep for the night, but another thing I've been puzzling over is Trap/Blade Trap/Spike Trap. I know it was "Trap" in-game in TMC, but is there much consistency with either of the others in guides? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:52, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Re: LADX guides
I've no idea, sorry. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:45, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Re: Manondork
I thiiiiink that's Handy Ganny because of the upper panel, the "I was one of them" seems like a way to justify Mr. Random Tree having such specific knowledge. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:45, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no real preference, though I myself only blank text if it's a label for artwork. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:04, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I am a tad curious if that's really one of the talking trees or if that's intended to reference the shrub-like storyteller. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:52, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with "comic." As for the two mangas, either name or year could work (if the latter are different), though the manga that isn't really obscure (I've only seen the other mentioned only on Agahnim's page) could take priority for a "manga" identifier. And yes, I am well aware of the many liberties, such as the comic having multiple Helmasaur Kings identified as "Gleeocs" (which I'm curious if that was a false cognate for the Japanese name), and the manga having Vitreous by a giant friendly cyclops girl. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:46, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Is that later one the source of the Armos that looked very suspiciously like the OoT artwork? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
 * That's it all right. I was curious due to blatantly having that game's design, since OoT was released after ALttP original. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Horseface and Oxface
Well, there was a sole Guma midway through Parapa Palace iirc....might have been more there, but I think it was just one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

AoL Nintendo art not in A&A
Arts & Artifacts lacks a Carock artwork, but Gamepedia Zeldawiki has from the old Zelda Universe....wonder what the true source is, and if there are any more enemies that have artwork stashed away in a guide? The artstyle is in-line with the other NoJ AoL artworks.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Myself
I discussed this with some others yesterday -- summing up the zeldapedia incident -- but I figured you'd also like some context on this. The events in November tied in with how because I didnt feel confident in my ability to run a wiki on Zelda games, especially having been raised with the Mario franchise nearly all my life. I'm also a 22 year old who isn't an expert in translations, and I generally specialize in western platforming wikis (Donkey Kong is pseudo-western, at least because Rare had a large involvement with it, and then there's Retro Studios).

I played Star Fox Adventures, which borrowed heavily from Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and I really liked Star Fox Adventures (more love-hate relationship with it). It was one of the major reasons I thought it would be good to start a new Zelda wiki, as I'm a big fan of a lot of Rare's games, and I wanted it to have a proper wiki to trace back to. I also had a childhood friend who had both Nintendo 64 games and another with the OoT compilation for GameCube, so I had some Zelda experience growing up. I also played Link's Awakening DX and Ocarina of Time 3D years ago, both of which are games I really like. I actually linked to Star Fox Adventures' Lylat Wiki page on the opening section of the OoT article here too.... And then I saw discussions on Super Mario Wiki, realizing the circumstance was worse on Zelda Wiki than i had thought (I didnt notice them adding Dark Horse references everywhere).

The Zelda Archive thing didnt work out, so I asked hylian pi (the site's webmaster) for all the content that he didn't write and i moved it to zelda.shoutwiki.com briefly for safekeeping. I still wanted something larger, and nobody in NIWA wanted to host a Zelda wiki to prevent drama. However, I had a bit of an outsider's perspective and was really annoyed about the situation, so I thought "this is total nonsense. i'm making a wiki with others whether or not they like it". I'm still with my parents, and I don't make much money (Seattle minimum wage & i work part-time), so I almost got broke when paying for a 3-year hosting plan on BlueHost, but I was that determined to try and make this work. I also wanted to learn how to configure MediaWiki & follow in porplemontage's footsteps (he's like a dad to me).

At first I didn't have much faith in my ability and I felt against all odds, Triforce Wiki would be a failure. The big mistake was when I founded this wiki, it was more out of animosity toward the Gamepedia wiki, rather than trying to host a community. After the Zeldapedia mistake, I realized that Triforce Wiki was a better option, despite far fewer articles, and it had a unique vision from the start. It's the only Zelda wiki to originate from a Mario community (Super Mario Wiki), and to focus more accommodating for Mario gamers than Zelda gamers (the latter are accommodated in places such as Zelda Dungeon or Zelda Universe). Mario and Zelda are sibling franchises, and the main series (Super Mario series and Zelda series) are usually developed concurrently by the same staff at Nintendo.

Basically I felt it was an embarrassment to be hosting a wiki on Zelda, given some unappealing facts about me (such as being a 22 year old who grew up on platforming games). Other saw something that I didn't, such as leadership potential. The DK Wiki merge got ahold of my anxiety big-time, and I wanted to return to the Rare wikis, as I felt i was neglecting them too much. Since the mistake with Zeldapedia, I felt really, really terrible for letting the community down, as I didn't want to go down the same path as zeldawiki.org and sell out or alienate my community. Since the mistake, I've made a Discord server and added some userboxes on Triforce Wiki, and I've been trying to add more community spirit around the place, WiKirby being a major inspiration. That makes it more a community thing and less of a 'pet project', as they would call it. Results May Vary (talk) 16:25, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Welcome back
I saw in your edit summary that you planned an article for Marin. Admittedly I've been wanting to do one since 2019, but I wanted to ask what kind of technical issues did you encounter? Results May Vary (talk) 09:17, 2 April 2020 (MDT)
 * Shortly after the new year, my graphics card started failing and soon my laptop screen suddenly ceased functioning altogether. I've been ignoring some other issues with it for a while, but this finally made it unusable. I'd recently given an older desktop away as a hand-me-down so I didn't have any immediate backup devices (I could've resorted to mobile editing, but it's inconvenient for larger-scale wiki writing). That left me without my own personal computer for over a month. LTL (talk) 19:23, 30 April 2020 (MDT)
 * Ah hi LTL, I know to decrease Triforce discussion on Mario Wiki but this was the wiki's 1st birthday & I wanted to tell you about this on the first birthday. Sheik should be a comprehensive page & I decided for it to be the featured article. Results May Vary (talk) 19:47, 30 April 2020 (MDT)

Apologies for Sheik edit
Hi, I'm sorry I didn't thoroughly read & conclude about the Sheik email. I think the reason why I jumped too quickly was because I thought of the irony of citing something from their talk page in a similar way to how Mario Wiki did with the Wario Land II (especially if Nintendo's Sheik article didn't mention it itself). I'll try and be more careful next time. I do wonder, how did Nintendo give a thoughtful response for the Wario Land II enemies? Wonder why they did that for WL2 but not the Sheik gender thing. Results May Vary (talk) 20:55, 30 April 2020 (MDT)
 * That's fine, no need to apologize. Interesting choice for the anniversary article. The only issue I have with it is that it's unfortunately pretty repetitive to write around pronouns in English. I'll look into it and try to come up with ways to read more naturally while maintaining accuracy, which I'll propose on the talk page first. Regarding the Wario Land enemies, I'm really not sure how the stars managed to align on that one since it's somewhat rare for Nintendo mail reps to give an individualized, careful response. There must be some sort of trick to it. LTL (talk) 21:07, 30 April 2020 (MDT)

Zelda.com fanon?
I've heard that zelda.com had fanfiction information on it. Do you know anything about this? Results May Vary (talk) 16:23, 1 May 2020 (MDT)
 * Oh yeah, a lot of the information on zelda.com was pretty iffy in its heyday. You can read about some of it here. Even the modern redesign has a few flaws, such as resurrecting the long-buried Dragmire argument for no good reason. I was just going by how some articles like Cheep Cheep already use a Zelda Universe profile, but I'll leave it to your and Doc's judgment on whether it should be banned. LTL (talk) 17:27, 1 May 2020 (MDT)
 * I'd say include the profiles because it's technically official. I just wondered if theres any deep history as to why because Doc told me about it Results May Vary (talk) 17:33, 1 May 2020 (MDT)
 * Ah, that's a good question, but I'm afraid I'm not privy to those details. LTL (talk) 19:07, 1 May 2020 (MDT)

Octive and Water Octorok
So, Octive of Spirit Tracks and the Water Octorok in BotW have the same Japanese name. However, this could easily be incidental, as Octive is hardly the game's most common or otherwise memorable enemy (aside from how weird it looks), and while they attack similar, it's ultimately an adaptation of the OoT behavior. What has me curious, though, is if the Water Octorok in TFH has the same JP name, as that could link them better, particularly since TFH brought Squiddy back. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:21, 12 May 2020 (MDT)
 * In the interim, I had also noticed HH calling Ocean Octorok's concept artwork from PH "Ink Octo" while calling Octive's various design interpretations simply "Octorok." Does this mean we should probably split each of BotW's land-based Octos? I've been considering going ahead and splitting the elemental Wizzrobes, it just seemed awkward with them commonly appearing without a "normal" type, and other times the "normal" type using variable elemental magic. On the subject of ZE selectively regrouping things, MannedTooth reminded me that it considers Eyegore and Eyegore Statue the same as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:13, 18 May 2020 (MDT)
 * Mysterii has the JP Spirit Tracks guide, so I can ask him I suppose. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:41, 18 May 2020 (MDT)
 * OK, turns out he was actually using previous citations for names. He found スミオクタ for ST's Ocean Octorok, but nothing for PH's. This is also in conflict with ZW's name for this, but given they didn't have a citation for it I'm leaning towards trusting his more. "Sumi" here also likely refers to a word for cephalopod ink, which explains "Ink Octo" succinctly. On an only tenuously related note, given all the oddities in HH regarding PH Octoroks (Cyclok being labeled simply as Octorok, the "Ink Octo" thing, Bellum being intended as a giant Octorok, and Octomines being intended as his minions), it makes me wonder if they initially intended to have Octoroks as a whole be the villains of that game (potentially to make up for them being AWOL in TP), with that not panning out in the finished product.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:24, 18 May 2020 (MDT)
 * I was thinking the same thing regarding the Moblin parallel. If those labels are true to the actual design notes for each piece of concept art, that indicates to me Cyclok's design was intended for the basic Octoroks, and was adopted by the "wind boss" after they decided to give them a more traditional design for a fixed-camera game. It certainly fits better alongside Ocean Octorok's design. Regarding the Hinoxes, it seems likely, given their only behavioral parallels to normal depictions of Hinoxes (the stronger ones pulling powder kegs out of the ground occasionally) seems like such an afterthought it might as well not be there. Not to mention the other miniboss species being new, particularly given Molduga could have easily been identified as Malgyorg without it being too unbelievable. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:23, 18 May 2020 (MDT)
 * From what I can tell, "Mold" more refers to sand in general, hence why the aforementioned Malgyorgs are apparently Moldgyorgs in Japan (though given the OG Moldorm went from sand in the first game to swamps in ALttP, maybe it's inconsistent). I do wonder what "Molduga" is otherwise supposed to refer to, since "Moldrassic" making a "Jurassic" joke makes sense given its prehistoric-looking design, while the SandWorm makes sense as yet another reference to the only part of Dune anyone ever cares to know about. Anyways, the Octo thing is certainly possible, though it might have just been hard to resist the non-phonetic alliteration. Back on the subject of the Wizzrobes, TFH has only Ice Wizzrobes without a Fire Wizzrobe in sight. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:27, 18 May 2020 (MDT)
 * ALBW-acting normal Octoroks are in the Den of Trials too, so that's likely what one of those refers to. I do find it interesting how Grim Repoe's name there is referencing the things it carries instead of "Po(e)Boss" or something, particularly since a lantern is already mentioned. The Moldworm thing is no surprise at all; it's probable that they always intended for the "worm" part to be obvious but had a simple disconnect with English phonetics, resulting in "Morudoāmu," with "Morudowāmu" being a very minor way to fix it. Not to mention how TMC Moldworm acts like the original Moldorm aside from the eating thing, and TP Moldorm acting like Swamola aside from location and aggression. Not to mention that that'd be such a random enemy to give an ascended role to....any chance of a file name or guide reference pointing to what those probably-Moldorms in the Molgera fight are called? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:56, 20 May 2020 (MDT)
 * Yeah, much like my recent merge of fence and chain-link on MarioWiki, I only came to the technicality realization as I was finishing....at least there's less links here to fix. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:03, 20 May 2020 (MDT)

Re:Recorder and Magical Rod
I have given my responses now. I must apologize for the lateness; I was taking a break from the wiki both to get schoolwork in order and do some things on MarioWiki. I have a deli job now for most of the week, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to contribute in the upcoming days. Also, if it's not clear by now I have more fun writing about monsters than items. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2020 (MDT)

Snow Gooze
TFH Prima guide just says "rat" and has a picture of both types. Anyways, on the subject of rats, do you know if the TWW bomb rats being alternatively "Bombchu" is in the JP script or a western addition? I have a similar question regarding TMC's red crows being "Takkuri." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:30, 19 May 2020 (MDT)
 * Given they're basically the same thing, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:01, 20 May 2020 (MDT)

Internal name template?
So I had an idea. Why not make a template similar to the niol template that's about file names? Like we'd list a name, in the next column, we'd list the meaning or reference if it's not self-explanatory, and in the last one we'd list the games it's apply to. Row down, rinse and repeat. Now, due to the potentially large amount of rows, it might be best to simply do it as a table without specific parameters so as to not have it contradict itself in coding, but I'm just at the idea stage with this right now. It solves the not-fitting-in-the-niol-table problem but still lists them in a similar way, and honestly, they're just as important from a game design/development standpoint. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:04, 19 May 2020 (MDT)