Editing Talk:Sheik

=S/heik=
Currently, the article noticeably tries to write around pronoun usage in a few places, and in other places, it's inconsistent. The former would be fine for a small-scale subject, but for someone as important and popular as Sheik, the writing comes across as a bit repetitive. It's also going to seep into other articles regarding Sheik, which will no doubt confuse future editors. That's why I think it's better to adopt a sort of characterization policy sooner rather than later. It's my assessment that there are about two optimal ways to handle it in an accurate fashion.

'''1) The key creators stance, which is closer to the Mario Wiki.''' Simply put, the viewpoint of [https://web.archive.org/web/20091128100937/http://kotaku.com/5412635/zelda-developer-was-stumped-by-new-zelda-games-puzzles Eiji Aonuma] and [https://web.archive.org/web/20140806140329/https://www.polygon.com/2014/8/5/5948989/zelda-nintendo-sheik-gender-cosplay Bill Trinen] is that Sheik is a she, and their word shouldn't be ignored. The article will acknowledge that certain characters and statements confuse Sheik for a male, but will maintain overall that Sheik is officially female. To be honest, this is also my most preferred option since keeping it clean and simple in a unified manner will lead to less hassles in the long run, but I'm open to the alternative below.

'''2) The case-by-case stance, which is closer to the Zelda Wiki.''' The wiki will flip pronoun usage depending on what is most relevant to each appearance. This won't always be immediately obvious, so it will probably be messier than the above. To elaborate, Sheik is clearly referred to with feminine pronouns in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series and ''Hyrule Warriors''; to address ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'', while the [https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/blog/index.html?category=cat02_fighter_16 website] uses a masculine pronoun, [https://nintendo.tumblr.com/post/178668945609/sheik-dons-the-sheikah-costume-from-the-legend-of social] [https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1047018344212250625 media] [https://www.facebook.com/SmashBros/videos/172293833704662/ posts] all use feminine pronouns as well as in the in-game [https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSBU)#Sheik tips], which makes the punchline of the [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Palutena's%20Guidance#Sheik_2 guidance] fairly blatant, in-character teasing at the expense of Pit and some players.

That leaves ''Ocarina of Time''. In-game, it seems about even since Ruto offhandedly considers Sheik a young man in dialog yet Sheik has a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RHQJvhbEAw voice clip] reserved for Gerudo women. For our purposes, despite not being as nearly an authoritative source as series supervisors, I believe we should look to the official game guides (note that I'm overlooking Zelda Universe and ''Hyrule Historia'' for now). My findings are as follows: Nintendo Power's, Versus Books', and Prima's ''Ocarina of Time'' guides use masculine pronouns (the latter even calls Sheik a young man), as well as Prima's ''Nintendo 64 Game Secrets, 1999 Edition'', and ''The Wind Waker'' guides (which cover ''Ocarina of Time''), but BradyGAMES' ''Ocarina of Time'' guide uses either pronoun depending on the page and Nintendo Power's ''Collector's Edition'' guide and Prima's ''Ocarina of Time 3D'' guide use feminine pronouns. In light of this, we can amend the second approach into two methods of looking at it.

'''2a) Use the most recent usage.''' This gives the edge to Sheik being referred to with feminine pronouns regarding the ''Ocarina of Time'' appearance. If we do go the case-by-case route, this would be my preferred choice since Sheik's character profiles throughout the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series use feminine pronouns in the context of the original ''Ocarina of Time'' appearance, and this happens to align with that interpretation.

'''2b) Use the most common usage.''' This gives the edge to Sheik being referred to with masculine pronouns regarding the ''Ocarina of Time'' appearance. This is admittedly supported by a line apparently in ''[https://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-87/ Hyrule Historia]'', but the way it's phrased leads me to believe the writer had the manga adaptation in mind, which took artistic liberties with the source material (and the contents of the timeline section are openly presented as more of a set of loose guidelines rather than concrete rules).

To sum it up, the bottom line is as follows: #1 would universally refer to Sheik with feminine pronouns, 2a would only refer to the ''Ocarina of Time'' manga with masculine pronouns, and 2b would add the ''Ocarina of Time'' game to the aforementioned; regardless, all subsequent appearances will use feminine pronouns. Personally, I don't think Sheik as a character would really care about gender pronouns - so long as no one thinks the Survivor of the Sheikahs is the Princess of Hyrule, the disguise did its job - but, well, as an "English-language wiki", it just reads more naturally to use third-person pronouns instead of overusing the person's name. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 18:15, 1 May 2020 (MDT)
:I admittedly have not read the manga, but from what I understand it's different enough we could consider Sheik male there but not the OoT game (after all, Nintendo EAD didn't exactly write the manga). <s>I personally found the "trust what a fish says over what Nintendo says" to be pretty dumb anyways</s> Basically, I'd say 2a would probably be the safest bet unless I'm misunderstanding how it was presented in the manga. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:26, 1 May 2020 (MDT)
::I definitely think that (1) should be considered overall, although I added "he" in Zelda Ocarina of Time because it was assumed that Sheik was a male disguise. and him being Zelda was a major plot point/spoiler at the end, as all along we thought it was a different character from Zelda. While ''Smash Bros.'' highly popularized Zelda being Sheik, I still think we should "he" for Zelda Ocarina of Time. Aside from that, I think the rest should just be (1), the key creators stance, unless Sheik is referred to as a male "within the game itself", not external official sources. The later OOT guides calling Sheik a "her" might be because ''Melee'' made it known that Zelda and Sheik are the same character. What do you think?

Oh and even if we reach a final decision, we should list which official sources use which pronoun for each game section (maybe not including social media). [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 20:38, 1 May 2020 (MDT)
:@Doc: So it sounds like your ideal implementation would essentially be #1 for the games and #2 for other media. That works. I guess the main takeaway about ''Ocarina of Time'' is that, in the manga, Sheik is more or less a different person since he doesn't really know who he is, whereas in the game, Sheik is perfectly aware but is concerned about hiding her identity and expressing herself minimally, if that makes sense. Considering other details are different such as Sheik working with Ganondorf at first, there are certainly enough departures to give it special treatment.
:@RMV: Barring some major development like a completely separate version of Sheik, I think it would be pretty wonky to try to fit #1 & #2 together and come out with the results of 2b. My theory is that players who were exposed to the artwork first were predisposed into thinking Sheik was male. [https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/fc/d5/dcfcd5a82a4824c5d4ec80c80499102e.jpg Take a look.] The N64 graphics were too rough to make heads or tails of it; in comparison, while the 3DS model is closer to the artwork, it noticeably deviates by relaxing the muscle tone. Basically, the artwork does a better job into making you believe that Sheik isn't Zelda while the game does a better job into making Sheik look more androgynous, which is a trait carried over into most of Sheik's other character designs. In my experience, I played the game before seeing the artwork, so my initial thought was, "''is that Impa?''" I'm also fairly certain that Sheik's original design was drawn before ''Ocarina of Time'''s storyline was [https://web.archive.org/web/19971011205927/http://www.nintendo.com/product/n64/zelda/index.html finalized]. Regarding pronoun emphasis, I think it's actually redundant. Sure, the introduction can definitely bring up the fact that ''Ocarina of Time'' material is inconsistent, but when the ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' website is the anomaly (which we'd also mention), it's quite a roundabout way of saying that Sheik is otherwise always depicted as female afterwards. I know some people would disagree, but I never really saw it as ''that'' important to ''this'' particular character, and if this happened to be a Japanese-language wiki, it would be a non-issue. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 09:07, 2 May 2020 (MDT)
::What would your idea be then? I am not sure if i have any ideas how to handle this [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 09:23, 2 May 2020 (MDT)
:::Like I said, it can be mostly relegated to the introductory paragraph, like how Mario Wiki handles it (maybe somewhat rephrased): "''Her appearance is very androgynous, and was made that way in order to make the reveal at the end more surprising. Because of this, she has been referred to as both male and female by other characters as well as in certain descriptions, but is canonically female.''" However, since we obviously cover the ''Zelda'' series instead of just ''Smash'', it could be expanded to include examples, then conclude that Sheik is considered female overall citing either creator statements if #1 or recent statements if 2a. Basically, it's all kept in one visible space to make a significant note of it instead of scattered throughout the article. I guess the question would be how best to organize the information specific to the ''Ocarina of Time'' manga and the ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' website. I'm thinking of leaving the mention of the website to the ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' section, since the game still ultimately refers to Sheik with feminine pronouns even if it does pretty much tease certain fans by using masculine pronouns as a joke. I think the manga-specific information is probably fine where it is since, while Sheik is more explicitly envisioned as a boy there, the characterization is presented different enough from the original to be its own. That's assuming we look at manga as #2. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 10:20, 2 May 2020 (MDT)
::::Sure, let's go with that idea. [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 10:54, 2 May 2020 (MDT)
:::::All right, so it'll be #1 for games, with #2 for manga and (hypothetically) other media. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 11:27, 2 May 2020 (MDT)
::::::Sounds like a good idea to me. Thank you LTL (and admittedly one reason I made this article on the anniversary because talk page discussions like this affirm the intent of Triforce Wiki). [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 12:48, 2 May 2020 (MDT)

== Brawl design source ==

Currently, the article essentially states that Sheik's Brawl design was an "unused concept" from TP. However, according to the English HH (which is how I had it before), it was specifically designed for Brawl to go along with TP's aesthetic. What should we say? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:07, 3 May 2020 (MDT)
:Looks like there's a conflict. For reference, [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik here] is how SmashWiki set it up: "''Sheik's updated design was initially created for Twilight Princess,''[DOJO ref] ''but plans to implement her into Twilight Princess fell through. As a result, her updated design was effectively discarded until finding new life via Brawl.''[Historia ref]" The [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/characters/sheik.html former] states that Sheik's design was drafted up during the development of ''that'' game (meaning ''Twilight Princess''), whereas the [https://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-174/ latter] specifies the design was made for ''Brawl'' as an extension of the ''Twilight Princess'' Zelda. It doesn't really make sense for both to be true like how SmashWiki suggests. So let's turn to the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/jp/characters/sheik.html Japanese] website: 『ゼルダの伝説 トワイライトプリンセス』には、シークは出現しません。が、開発中に考案されたというデザインを下地にしています。 (''In The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Sheik doesn’t appear. However, it is based on a design that was invented during development.'') Now it looks like there was a bad context translation error; "development" is implicitly referring to ''Brawl'', not ''Twilight Princess''. Additionally, the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/de/characters/sheik.html German] and [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/fr/characters/sheik.html French] websites seem to state ''this'' or ''the'' game instead of ''that'' game (though the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/es/characters/sheik.html Spanish] and [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/it/characters/sheik.html Italian] websites still refer to ''that'' game). Along with Eiji Aonuma's statments [https://web.archive.org/web/20070818043426/http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200708/N07.0802.1741.54921.htm here], signs point to ''Hyrule Historia'' being the correct source. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 20:00, 3 May 2020 (MDT)
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 Currently, the article essentially states that Sheik's Brawl design was an "unused concept" from TP. However, according to the English HH (which is how I had it before), it was specifically designed for Brawl to go along with TP's aesthetic. What should we say? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:07, 3 May 2020 (MDT)
-:Looks like there's a conflict. For reference, [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik here] is how SmashWiki set it up: "''Sheik's updated design was initially created for Twilight Princess,''[DOJO ref] ''but plans to implement her into Twilight Princess fell through. As a result, her updated design was effectively discarded until finding new life via Brawl.''[Historia ref]" The [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/characters/sheik.html former] states that Sheik's design was drafted up during the development of ''that'' game (meaning ''Twilight Princess''), whereas the [https://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-174/ latter] specifies the design was made for ''Brawl'' as an extension of the ''Twilight Princess'' Zelda. It doesn't really make sense for both to be true like how SmashWiki suggests. So let's turn to the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/jp/characters/sheik.html Japanese] website: 『ゼルダの伝説 トワイライトプリンセス』には、シークは出現しません。が、開発中に考案されたというデザインを下地にしています。 (''In The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Sheik doesn’t appear. However, it is based on a design that was invented during development.'') Now it looks like there was a bad context translation error; "development" is implicitly referring to ''Brawl'', not ''Twilight Princess''. Additionally, the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/de/characters/sheik.html German] and [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/fr/characters/sheik.html French] websites seem to state ''this'' or ''the'' game instead of ''that'' game (though the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/es/characters/sheik.html Spanish] and [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/it/characters/sheik.html Italian] websites still refer to ''that'' game). Along with Eiji Aonuma's statements [https://web.archive.org/web/20070818043426/http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200708/N07.0802.1741.54921.htm here], signs point to ''Hyrule Historia'' being the correct source. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 20:00, 3 May 2020 (MDT)
+:Looks like there's a conflict. For reference, [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik here] is how SmashWiki set it up: "''Sheik's updated design was initially created for Twilight Princess,''[DOJO ref] ''but plans to implement her into Twilight Princess fell through. As a result, her updated design was effectively discarded until finding new life via Brawl.''[Historia ref]" The [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/characters/sheik.html former] states that Sheik's design was drafted up during the development of ''that'' game (meaning ''Twilight Princess''), whereas the [https://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-174/ latter] specifies the design was made for ''Brawl'' as an extension of the ''Twilight Princess'' Zelda. It doesn't really make sense for both to be true like how SmashWiki suggests. So let's turn to the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/jp/characters/sheik.html Japanese] website: 『ゼルダの伝説 トワイライトプリンセス』には、シークは出現しません。が、開発中に考案されたというデザインを下地にしています。 (''In The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Sheik doesn’t appear. However, it is based on a design that was invented during development.'') Now it looks like there was a bad context translation error; "development" is implicitly referring to ''Brawl'', not ''Twilight Princess''. Additionally, the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/de/characters/sheik.html German] and [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/fr/characters/sheik.html French] websites seem to state ''this'' or ''the'' game instead of ''that'' game (though the [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/es/characters/sheik.html Spanish] and [https://www.smashbros.com/wii/it/characters/sheik.html Italian] websites still refer to ''that'' game). Along with Eiji Aonuma's statments [https://web.archive.org/web/20070818043426/http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200708/N07.0802.1741.54921.htm here], signs point to ''Hyrule Historia'' being the correct source. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 20:00, 3 May 2020 (MDT)
-==“Cancelled Zelda project”==
-This is certainly convenient timing, but [https://shinesparkers.net/concept-artwork-surfaces-for-rumoured-sheik-and-boo-titles-by-retro-studios/ concept artwork] from 2005 to 2008 was released online by a former Retro Studios pre-production artist for an “action/JRPG” title supposedly featuring (male) Sheik as literally the last surviving Sheikah on a journey to revitalize the Master Sword while the new "Dark Gerudo" prepare for the 100-year rebirth of Ganon, which was apparently set "within the bad ending" of ''Ocarina of Time'' (I presume meaning either prior to the great flood mentioned in ''The Wind Waker'' or after [[Hyrule Historia#The Hero is Defeated|the Hero of Time is defeated]], or possibly something else entirely). Sketches include Sheik, the aforementioned Dark Gerudo, a Dark Valoo race, petrified Deku Tree, Deku Warriors, Hyrule Castle during a drought, spirits, a Clocktown with robotic children, {{wp|Jabberwocky}}, Helmasaurs, and other creatures and settings. The game reportedly never went beyond pre-production and I'm not sure if we have enough information on other projects to create a [[mariowiki:list of unreleased media|list of unreleased media]], but shall it at least be incorporated as trivia? [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 11:41, 7 May 2020 (MDT)
-:Definitely, if Sheik was to star in a game that never got past the concept stage. [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 13:19, 7 May 2020 (MDT)
-::The art links are just giving me 404 errors... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:05, 7 May 2020 (MDT)
-:::Looks like the individual posts were taken down within the past hour or so, though someone had the foresight of preserving them on {{wp|archive.today}} (not me, the posts were archived two days ago and I just found out about it today). [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 14:15, 7 May 2020 (MDT)
-::::Really? That's a very strange coincidence. [[User:Results May Vary|Results May Vary]] ([[User talk:Results May Vary|talk]]) 15:02, 7 May 2020 (MDT)
-:::::Some details such as the reason for cancellation are followed up [https://www.ign.com/articles/cancelled-zelda-sheik-boo-game here], but there's still no word on why the artwork was removed. Likely legal reasons, but Hall explains that since it was in pre-production, most of Nintendo probably never saw it. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 13:48, 9 May 2020 (MDT)
-::::::Yeah, saw your MW edits on that. Hope we can see it again soon, though it was likely some sorta well-meaning dimwit copyright snitch. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:52, 9 May 2020 (MDT)
-:::::::Well, it looks like Sammy Hall's [https://www.artstation.com/sammyhall ArtStation account] was deleted entirely (it was just active yesterday with the Nintendo content removed), so that unfortunately might be the last we see of it for a while. [[User:LTL|LTL]] ([[User talk:LTL|talk]]) 15:05, 9 May 2020 (MDT)